Allison Sullivan
12 min read ⭑
“My faith life isn’t limited to just me and God. While that would be nice, I’m called into communion and connectivity. I’m commanded to give mercy. It might be easy to extend compassion to those whom I enjoy; it might be easy to extend grace to those who ask for it. That can be simple. Even fun! But it’s not the assignment. Because what about those who don’t ask for it? What about those who won’t? What then?”
Allison Sullivan is a wife, a mother of five, a speaker, and a social activist. She’s written a book called Rock, Paper Scissors and is the host of a podcast called Sinner Saint Sister, which tells the stories of women who have “lived life deeply.”
In this interview, Allison, a story-teller at heart, opens up about the simple daily pleasures that capture her heart and the gift of lamenting she finds in reading the Psalms. She shares why she prefers curiosity over certainty and why she believes that friendship trumps service in reaching out to people in need. Keep reading to hear how Allison seeks to change her corner of the world, and how she and her family weathered the pandemic by creating a TikTok account that has grown to over 1.3 million followers.
QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT
There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?
This world is beautiful. I refuse to give up on that. The rings of Saturn, the cherry blossoms in Japan, labor and delivery. And listen, you don’t have to be traveling through space, in a foreign country, or bringing life into the world to feel pure reverent wonder. The day-to-day ordinary moments can be just as awesome.
My favorite meals are usually the ones after church. A particularly memorable plate of sizzling fajitas comes to mind. I was sitting in a Mexican restaurant with a best friend and her husband. It was technically a Sunday brunch. The stars aligned, and all nine of our children behaved in church. (Minus one tiny meowing contest and two kids getting stuck under the pew.) We were celebrating and talking on a festive patio. Our kids were on the playground, and throughout our soulful conversation we got to watch them play. From our seats we could feel the sunshine and hear our kids' laughter. There was Mariachi music playing. And there I was discussing important things with my husband, whom I adore, my dearest friend, whom I would take a bullet for, and her husband, who is pure gold. Everything was just right in its place, and I was totally overwhelmed with the rightness of it all.
Annie Spratt; Unsplash
QUESTION #2: REVEAL
We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activities do you love and help you find spiritual renewal?
There are everyday miracles that capture my mind, my eye, and my heart. Music, science, dogs, the sun in my baby's hair. A crashing wave, a bearded palm tree, some words stacked up just right. There are glories in this world that might seemingly have nothing to do with God or church or Jesus that nevertheless make me raise my hands and whisper, “Thank you.”
Hiking has allowed me opportunities to be surprised catching God doing what he does so well—loving me. I don't hike to look for God. It's always to just reclaim some space. But every single time he meets me there.
Simple treasures. Favors with my name on them. Blessings gathered up and slipped in my pocket. A fuzzy leaf with veins like mine. A willow that weeps, too. An acorn to remember.
When I'm hiking, I'm leaving a world where I work off of a to-do list, and I'm embracing a world where God is everywhere and I pay tribute by simply noticing.
I remember being twenty-four, young, and on my own, in a faraway country with three of my very best girlfriends. It was late at night, and we were in the middle of the jungle in a canoe, snaking down a river with what must have been one jillion trillion stars in the sky like pinholes above us. The trees hung low, and the air smelled foreign. We giggled with our tour guide trying to understand one another without a common language, relying on charades. We laughed and laughed that night in the middle of the jungle.
I was on an adventure thick with creation and overwhelmed that life allowed opportunities to laugh in a canoe with people I treasured. In the privacy of our midnight setting, I lifted my hands up to that starry sky and said, “Thank you.”
QUESTION #3: CONFESS
Every superhero has a weakness. Every human, too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite and how do you hide it?
I have some really impressive muscles built from the grudges I've carried. I know that's normal, but I think I may be better at it than you.
As friends, family, community members, co-workers, people trying our best, people stuck in traffic, we often run into each other leaving bumps and bruises. Frustration, hurt, anger—it's all normal. But remembering the ref who missed the flagrant foul three years ago and not returning his friendly nod at the grocery store probably isn't.
When something hurts, I fight for myself. If justice is overlooked, I will flip tables. I've let my anger, that at first might be righteous, turn indulgent.
Bitterness can gnaw, rage can churn, and angry thoughts can pile up until there isn’t room for much else except that clutching emotion that robs me of sleep while I rehearse conversations where I am eloquently victorious. Tossing and turning and delivering justice with my sharp tongue and excellent points—If I'm not careful, this can become my happy place.
I might fight for what I know is right, win, and then settle into the feeling of having been justified like it is a cozy sweater. I bet a sneaky enemy would rejoice in having me think that is the exact definition of peace—fighting, winning, and then being justified.
It's ironic, isn't it? Fighting like hell for peace. All while trying to follow as closely as I can to a man who laid himself out.
My faith life isn't limited to just me and God. While that would be nice, I'm called into communion and connectivity. I'm commanded to give mercy. It might be easy to extend compassion to those whom I enjoy; it might be easy to extend grace to those who ask for it. That can be simple. Even fun! But it's not the assignment. Because what about those who don’t ask for it? What about those who won't? What then?
I might think I resemble Jesus turning over tables in a holy uproar, but realistically I'm far more like Peter—recklessly lopping off ears.
Loving my enemies doesn’t just sound hard to me, it sounds impossible. I don't think I'll ever get it right. And the truth, the honest-to-God truth, is that I'm not even sure I want to.
Dear God, help me to want what you want.
QUESTION #4: FIRE UP
Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your obsession? And why should it be ours?
When I read about giftedness, the talents he’s given us to use and multiply, it’s been a bit of a head-scratcher for me. Figuring out how to serve, how God is asking me to give back, is no small task. It doesn’t help that I’ve spent my life thinking my gifts don’t matter because I can’t sing or dance. Babies cry and dogs howl when I sing, and when I dance, people think I’m kidding.
As I’ve prayed through finding a purpose, I’ve started to consider that maybe my biggest talents aren’t things to do on a stage, but instead the people I am surrounding myself with. I’ve come to believe my biggest talents are my friendships. As we tend to what's hurting, nurture what's good, and altogether love one another well, I find myself in conversations I think everyone should hear.
This is the reason I started a podcast.
I was listening to my girlfriends, in awe of their wisdom, and feeling an urgency to share them with the world. It actually felt like my civic duty.
Podcasting makes me feel like I have caught my stride. Each episode of Sinner Saint Sister is a celebration of how women have lived life deeply. We gather together and tell the details of our lives and hope to bring people along as we do. These conversations bring clarity to my life.
We've gathered around fires for centuries to storytell. Stories connect us. They unmask opinions. They draw us into relationship. My hope for Sinner Saint Sister is that it becomes a meeting place to sit knee-to-knee with story. Through story we might get closer to one another so that this place, our place, becomes a place of redemption and forgiveness and reconciliation and understanding, that we might demonstrate the oneness of the people of God.
QUESTION #5: BOOST
Cashiers, CEOs, contractors, or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?
Listen.
Our family started making videos on TikTok because we were in the middle of a global pandemic and simply needed to stay friendly with one another while we were trapped at home. And I had just finished watching Tiger King. Frankly, things couldn't get much worse. All of a sudden, agreeing to try to learn some dances on some app with my kids didn't sound like the scandal it once did.
We had no idea people would follow along. But they did. 1.3 million of them. And we think it's crazy, too. But here we are.
We make wholesome content through a family lens, and people lean in for various reasons. Maybe they think our jokes are funny, and maybe they like how one of us looks, but more so I think they're intrigued by a family who enjoys each other.
My DMs overflow with messages about how lucky we are, how we remind them of a relationship they cherish (or cherished and now deeply miss), how they'd give anything for love like ours.
As followers on one platform (TikTok) find their way over to another (Instagram), they might come and go as they realize what I write about the most—our loving God who makes a beeline to the hurting.
But some of them seek it out and stay.
And when they do, I know that God can use anything he wants for his glory. Pandemics and TikTok dances. Even Tiger King. When something in my inbox says, "I've always had a complicated relationship with God, and following along here makes me want to explore why," I know that our lives are held. I know there is care in this world operating further out than anything I can fathom.
Our social media platforms have become a mishmash, and there is a preferential option for the Instagram follower with a handle like "reball69."
Paul prayed he'd preach to stadiums. He probably wondered what on earth God had planned when he ended up in chains. Almost half of the New Testament later, I'm sure he gained some clarity. I'm not likening myself to Paul (although I do appreciate his ability to relay God to people who think themselves godless), but I prayed my ministry would be writing my way into church history and people's hearts. I don't have the book deals I'd love. But I have an inbox full of anything I ever knew to hope for.
QUESTION #6: inspire
Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied actions that open our hearts to the presence of God. So spill it, which spiritual practice is workin’ best for you right now?
By my bathroom sink are two words—prepare and examine. I prepare in the morning, and I examine at night. I do both while brushing my teeth. At night I will reflect on my day and maybe nod like “yeah, well done,” or shake my head like “meh, that one got away from me.”
In this practice I've discovered that a good day for me is usually dependent on two things: how well I loved the people in front of me and how present I was in whatever role I was fulfilling.
Being fully present is always linked to my discipline of comfortably allowing space or time or silence. We can call it what we want because it's hardly literal. I have five kids, so there is very little silence in my life. But what I mean is more of a searching posture of the heart.
I used to think I needed extra amounts of introspection space because I was an introvert who liked to create, but now I’m certain it’s a human thing (that truthfully we aren’t getting enough of). Introverts might be wired to find it a little easier, but I'm convinced we all need it.
I'm my best momming human, yoga-ing human, speaking human, writing human, creative human when I have incorporated that space, and for each role the space provides something different.
As a mom, seeking space provides patience and farsightedness. If I can start my day with some deep thoughts and just a bit of alone time, it doesn’t have to be much, I am so much more likely to not freak out when they’ve taken their shoes off in the car before drop-off.
I am the best yoga-ing human, especially as an instructor, when I resist the urge to fill empty space, to let the space be.
I am the best creative human when I quit trying to conjure things up and quit trying to force something down. My favorite things I’ve ever written have seemed to write themselves, and I know that my pursuit of silence has everything to do with that.
It's easy to live off of a to-do list, abide by a hectic schedule, scroll for spiritual direction, obey Sabbath only when we're sick. I know. I go to bed depleted by all the wrong things all the time. But lately I'm finding that this small ritual is life-giving and life-shaping.
QUESTION #7: FOCUS
Our email subscribers get free ebooks featuring our favorite resources—lots of things that have truly impacted our faith lives. But you know about some really great stuff, too. What are three resources that have impacted you?
The people I admire always seem to have a few things in common—they are curious, wise, and funny.
I admire curiosity over certainty. I've found that certainty tends to make people self-satisfied and mean. (I think I read that somewhere.) Embracing doubts and asking good questions requires a certain amount of humility. I think this is what Jesus meant when he blessed the poor in spirit. I'd rather have a beautiful mystery over a set of ironclad truths any day.
That being said, gosh, I love a deep thinker. Someone willing to push past the answers they've been handed. Someone happy to jump off-script and scramble into new territory. Someone tender to whatever new thing God might be doing. Bring me your offbeat ideas and wild visions. I prefer a feather-ruffling prophet over an accommodating minister every single time.
And if we can do all these things while laughing, not taking ourselves too seriously, I am all the way in!
My favorite writers and thinkers are Brian Zahnd, Beth Moore, and Father Gregory Boyle.
Anything they have written or spoken has been a gift and has reminded me over and over how loving and merciful God is whenever I get to wondering.
We all have things we cling to to survive (or thrive) in tough times. Name one resource you’ve found indispensable in this current season—and tell us what it’s done for you.
Lately, I've been returning again and again to the Psalms. The world seems to be hanging by a thread, and just when I think the triumphant Christian culture I have found myself in doesn't have enough room for any of my despair or bad moods, I remember the Psalms. I think about how half of them are meant for lament—prayed on corners in public, groaning lament.
To think of lament in a Biblical context helps me feel like I'm not quite the drama queen my culture would have me think. To lament isn't whining. It is holy. Turning to the Psalms and considering that our God prayed these prayers draws me in. He quoted them in his darkest hour: “Why though, God?” Our very own Savior prayed and asked why. I shake my fist at the world. I rage against it. I hate all the hate. With no place to put it, I turn to the Psalms, flip through, and find just how I feel. In the Psalms I feel met right where I am.
QUESTION #8: dream
God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?
There’s no final place of arrival when it comes to living like Jesus. Our work is certainly cut out for us. But we do have an opportunity to change the world from our own little corners. For example, we can lament global issues like the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. We can look at that through a local lens, and then act! Lately I feel called to a certain kind of faithful citizenship, loving my actual neighbor like it's not a metaphor.
I love my community. And I believe that God yearns for us to belong to one another. But He wants for us a godly belonging where we belong to each other, all together, interconnected, neighbors like selves.
As I become more and more of an activist in my community, I realize the work is less about service projects and more about godly belonging.
Is providing a service easier than working for change? Maybe. Is service less controversial than activism? Probably.
I've been convicted that any service project I've been a part of isn't doing anything to erase the lines between the haves and the have nots. So what are we doing? What's the point?
I am becoming convinced that a Christian’s response to someone in need should be friendship, not service. I’m not certain serving someone does anyone any good long term. But I know for certain that incorporating someone does.
I'm in a learning phase. I'm taking in information, turning it around, looking from as many angles as I can, and really, really praying that none of this means I have to run for office.
Prepare and examine are the two words that Allison uses to help frame her days—preparing for the day ahead in the morning, and examining the day just lived in the evening. She measures a good day by how well she loved people and how present she was with those around her.
How do you prepare for the day ahead, and how do you evaluate its merit when it ends? 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that we can spend our days accomplishing all kinds of amazing things in the name of God, but if, at the end of the day, our actions lack love, then they’re useless. Spend some time meditating on this chapter, and ask God to help open your eyes to see how you can be more present in love to those around you.
Allison is a disciple of Christ, wife to Seth, and mother of five. With a passion for Thy Kingdom Come Allison believes in playing her part in the renewal and transformation of communities through walking humbly, acting justly and loving mercy. For her, Micah 6:8 includes writing and podcasting, hospitality and service, and social activism to cultivate love and hope. She also travels to speak and teach for ministry events. Allison is a trauma informed certified yoga instructor who believes in the healing power of bringing all things into alignment and breathing through what ails us. For fun, Allison enjoys creating wholesome content through a family lens for over 1.3 million TikTok fans, long road trips with her family, girls' nights out with her friends, thrifting, reading, and spending time at the beach. To relax, Allison watches Modern Family on the couch with her dogs.
