20 min read ⭑

Joel and Rachel Warneking understand the stigma, shame and betrayal that come with sexual brokenness. When Joel began his recovery journey in 2014, there were times when the pain of the situation threatened to overwhelm the couple. But with the Word of God, the Holy Spirit’s healing work and a loving, accepting community, the two have since experienced deep restoration. They now provide premarital counseling and are the executive directors of 423 Communities International, an organization where men and women can find healing from their own or their partner’s sexual brokenness through biblical resources and community groups. 

Come join the conversation to discover how remodeling homes helps Joel and Rachel find spiritual renewal, the key role “witnessing community” plays in sexual healing, and what relying on the Spirit looks like when ministering to hurting people. Plus, Joel offers a powerful example of quiet imagination fueling his spiritual growth while Rachel gets personal about how the gospel came to life for her during her husband’s recovery journey.

The following is a transcript of a live interview. Responses have been edited and condensed for brevity and clarity.

QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT

There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?

Joel: One of my favorite restaurant experiences is in a small breakfast restaurant in Hillsboro, Oregon. There’s nothing special about it. It’s an old building. It’s the same staff that has been working there for the 30 years I’ve been going. This restaurant was one of the first places where I truly encountered long-lasting friendship. My best friend — we’ve been close since I was 5 or 6 years old — and I started going there in early high school as soon as we could drive. Every Saturday, we’d sit down and get the same meal in the same space. It was where we curated deep friendship, created true connection and intimacy among brothers and established a legacy of connection. 

The food there is great. I think they have the best pancakes in the entire Portland area, but for me, it’s more about what was behind the food, what that place represented and how it cultivated that brotherly experience. Plenty of other beautiful restaurants with great food can satisfy the palate but are devoid of those deep relational connections that have built a lifelong friendship for me. So what ties me to that hometown space is thinking of the good food I enjoyed and the lifelong friendship and connection I built there.

Rachel: My memory is more recent. Joel and I celebrated our 12th anniversary this past July, and we had just come off of a crazy season. We moved to Dallas just a few days before our 11th anniversary, so we didn’t have much time to celebrate that year. And before our anniversary this year, I had been feeling, You know what I want? I just want to go explore Dallas. I want to see the city and the restaurants. We’re foodies, so I wanted a whole day of good food I did not have to cook. So we woke up on our 12th anniversary — for the first time in a long time, we had child care all day thanks to Grandma — and we spent the day going in and out of different restaurants and atmospheres. Such a wonderful day. We had important conversations regarding apologies we needed to make and different areas where we needed to cast a greater vision for our family, our marriage and our ministry.

As we popped around town, the conversation and vision were building. Then we ended the day at a popular Dallas restaurant called El Carlos Elegante. It was a cool atmosphere. It was moody. It was romantic. The menu was so strange that whatever you ordered made you think, I’m not quite sure what I’m going to get, which was exciting because I love the element of surprise. Thinking back to that day, we left not only enjoying a whole day centered around food and conversation in entirely different atmospheres at various restaurants but also realizing we needed to prioritize doing this. We want to continue creating days to enjoy good food and conversation — foundational things that help us celebrate life and marriage. So that’s a core memory now, and I often wonder, When can we create that again?

QUESTION #2: REVEAL

We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activities do you love and help you find spiritual renewal?

Rachel: Joel and I call ourselves impulsive remodelers. We used to flip homes and had a construction company back in Oregon. Our family motto is that we leave things better than we found them. When we would post on social media about our flips, we’d always tell our girls, “Whether it be homes or people, restoration is possible through hard work and determination, and the joy of seeing things come back to life makes the process worthwhile.” So we’ve always kind of had that motto. Funny enough, when Joel and I go into other people’s homes, we have to stop ourselves from saying, “You should put this here, and you should do that,” because they then say, “We have no intention of remodeling this space. It’s already been remodeled. It is what it is.” So we have to stop ourselves.

We’ve always dreamed of having an HGTV show where we remodel homes. And not only do we remodel homes, but we also create healthier marriages and family system structures. So HGTV, if you’re listening, reach out to us. We’re passionate about recovery ministry and getting to the heart of the problem as well as fixing up a home and making it better than it once was.

Joel: The beauty of being a part of a remodel is that when you work with people, stay in your own mind and deal with the heart so often, sometimes it’s nice to bust down some walls, tear out a floor and then see things come back together quickly. It reminds me of how God is in the process of restoring all things. Sometimes we spend a lifetime waiting for a foundation to be rebuilt for a healthy home. For me, the remodeling process is a quick reminder that something can go from death to life in a weekend. I can re-tile the floor, rebuild the shower and make a beautiful space for people to enjoy. It’s a good, healthy reminder for me. And practically, it looks like we’re constantly tearing things apart, always in the midst of a remodel and getting ourselves in deeper than we probably should have. We love creating beautiful spaces, whether with people or in the environment. So that’s what we love to jump into, which we find life giving and practically beneficial.

Rachel: It’s a love-hate relationship. When it’s done, it’s worthwhile.

QUESTION #3: CONFESS

Every superhero has a weakness. Every human too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite, and how do you hide it?

Joel: Part of my soul jumps at the mention of you calling me a superhero, which may be an insight into the deeper core wounding of wanting to be seen, known and affirmed. A kryptonite for me now is eating comfort food late at night. It goes back to when I was a kid and my parents were getting divorced. Nighttime was a time of solace for me. I remember when I was a young kid and everyone in the house would go to bed, and it would be quiet and still. To soothe that ache in my heart of my family’s brokenness and separation — and being so young, I didn’t know how to process those emotions — I would find a snack and enjoy the house being still and quiet. It became a sacred space for me. 

Even though that was a survival technique for little Joel, now it’s a battle against overeating, unhealthy weight patterns and having to push back against that deep desire to be comforted and soothed through food in solitude. That deeply affected me as a kid, and I still carry it to this day and struggle with it.

Rachel: Building off our answers to the previous question, our kryptonite is starting a project before we finish the last one. But besides that, my kryptonite is not wanting to do or deliver anything until I know it’s perfect. With taking care of three young kids, running a nonprofit organization and just the craziness of life, having the capacity for everything is tough. It’s never going to be perfect.

For example, I wrote our 423 Sisters curriculum and am on another round of edits. Every time I read the edits, I think, It’s not where I want it to be. It’s not perfect. I’m finding better research that I want to add rather than just my personality. I don’t know if I could ever really release that and publish it exactly as I want it to be. In my right mind, I know it’s not serving anyone by sitting in my PDFs on my computer, seen only by my editor and me. I need to move this forward. I need to get this out. But it’s hard for my personality not to hold tightly to everything. I’ve seen that affect me, my ministry and my ability to take risks and grow my dreams. I can’t do everything perfectly, and I hate that. It’s not a fun reality when you want to be perceived rightly. I want things to be helpful, but I can be my own worst critic. I have to come to a place of acceptance.

QUESTION #4: FIRE UP

Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your obsession? And why should it be ours?

Joel: Our desire for 423 Communities is to help people find hope, health and restoration from problematic sexual addictions and behaviors. We do this by partnering with churches all across the country to create a safe, vulnerable space for people to begin to find healing from their addictive behaviors and patterns. That’s a passion of mine because so much of my story involved living in isolation, afraid to be known, hidden in shame, doing ministry and trying to serve God but never having a safe community with which to pursue wholeness and discipleship in Jesus. So right now, I’m so passionate about and obsessed with the beauty of what it looks like to be in community. When the body of Christ comes together inside community — we call it a witnessing community — it can help heal, restore, repair and redeem all that has been broken. 

It also works from a neurobiological standpoint, referencing Curt Thompson’s work on interpersonal neurobiology. Throughout Scripture, we see God’s heart for the body of Christ to come together, love one another and heal, admonish, encourage and exhort each other. Physically being with someone who is attuned and loving you with that unconditional love found in Christ through the Holy Spirit is life changing. That presence heals so many layers of neural networks and emotional heartache. Even the physical processes of hormonal transactions in the body get restored and renewed in the presence of a loving, attuned community. A lot of what we focus on in our ministry is curating that space. We train members and leaders on how to intentionally witness one another to provide long-lasting, transformational healing in the body, the mind and the soul. That is truly what is at the heart of why we do what we do.

The money was much better in construction than it is in recovery ministry. But after seeing men, women and families transformed by the loving embrace of the witnessing community and equipped to move forward in their healing, I know it’s what I will dedicate the rest of my life to.

Rachel: I’ve led our ministry’s 423 Sisters program for five years. We’ve created these groups for women who are walking through betrayal trauma due to their partner’s sexual addiction. Most of the time, we are the first people to hold these stories. They’ve usually known about their partner’s addiction, but when they come to us, many times, they’re desperate. They don’t know who to tell or what to do. Over the years, we’ve tried to hone the idea of “What do we do?” and “What do we offer?” Our ministry has gotten to a place where we’re stabilized. We’ve set up processes online for people to join the program, so now, we’re asking, “What do we do with this group environment? During the two hours we have as a group with these women, what do we do well? How do we offer help to them? What is helpful for these women?” 

Lately, I’ve been enjoying writing liturgy. How do we come into this space, and how do we exit this space? How do we hold those tensions of being in the middle of a struggle and there’s no resolve — but our hope is still in Christ? The women in our groups are going through really painful situations, but in a way, they’re glad this is coming to light and have the opportunity to work on this, doing surgery on their lives and marriages and getting to the root cause of why they do what they do. Why are we affected the way that we are? 

So when I think about that time, it’s fun to cultivate our offerings and release myself and our leadership team. We do not have to do it all. How do we take these women into our program? We have honed our craft, and we know other great resources and ministries can help women with the next part of their journey. So we’re free to step up in many ways, to dream and visualize how we walk the journey with women, knowing we don’t have to do it all. It’s been an exciting season to dream, be creative, write and re-imagine how to sit with these women.

QUESTION #5: BOOST

Cashiers, CEOs, contractors or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?

Joel: If it weren’t for the grace and working of Jesus through the Holy Spirit, I would have nothing to offer. So many situations I encounter — the brokenness and the wounded families who come into our communities — force me to rely on Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Often when I’m in the middle of a counseling session or an intake, I open up to Jesus internally in my soul or physically with my hands because I know that he is the counselor, he is the comforter, he is the restoration this world needs, and he is in process of doing all things.

There is a continual reliance on the overflow of the Holy Spirit, and I’m just participating as a co-laborer in this restoration happening on earth. Even though there’s training and understanding and study and research on how to help people, I daily have to rely on God to do the work because, without him, I truly am nothing. I’ve seen that so many times. For example, today, my heart, my mind and my brain are drained from pouring into people, yet I can feel God working through this conversation in powerful ways. That has to be him. So that’s where I find it — the daily overflow. I’m partnering with God in that work.

Rachel: Often when I go into group time, it’s been a rough day with the kids. Life circumstances or the group members’ circumstances feel hard. I have to rely on the Holy Spirit. Right now, especially in this season with littles, I show up tired and have to pray, Lord, what do you want me to do in this? Holy Spirit, give me the right question to ask this woman. And I’ve seen so much provision that it’s allowed me, even if I’m showing up half-myself, to trust that the Holy Spirit will do the work. 

The amazing thing about being in a group and the body of Christ is that sometimes I just have to be in the space and help steward the conversation. The Holy Spirit is also working through other members in that group, and I just have to focus on how to encourage that collaboration and trust that someone will press into what’s being shared in a way that I perhaps can’t at the moment. Knowing and trusting that the Holy Spirit will work has made ministry more fun. It also creates opportunities to think, Maybe we need to adjust that. Maybe we need to go somewhere else with this. The Holy Spirit’s direction is what the ministry and the women need. And even I, as a leader, need that. Before, I couldn’t see that because I was working in my own flesh and trying to run with ideas that were mostly for myself or to make things seemingly easier. It’s been life changing to pause and not feel so in charge of every single moment.

QUESTION #6: inspire

Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied actions that open our hearts to the presence of God. So spill it, which spiritual practice is workin’ best for you right now?

Rachel: The word that sticks out to me right now is community. We are new to Dallas and have been here for a year. We are part of City Bridge Church and have just loved it so far. When you walk into the sanctuary, you see a wall that says, “High call, safe place.” In the years since Joel entered into his own recovery, the recovery world has grown in intentionality and vulnerability. I haven’t always felt that in the church. We can do all these Bible studies and show up in corporate worship, but sometimes community can be lacking in our lives. 

Yet as we’ve worked to incorporate ourselves into the church this past year, I have seen the Lord bring about great community. For the first time in my adult life, I feel like I have people who are running with me and asking me questions. For instance, last night, I was at Whole Foods until almost 10 p.m. with the women in my community group, and they were asking me deep questions like, “Are there any sin areas in your life right now? How are you loving your family? How are you loving your husband? How are you feeding your flesh?” Such good, quality, rich questions that have made me more in love with God, more in tune with his presence and more aware of my needs. They’ve helped me become a more sanctified follower of Christ with a deeper love of his Word. It’s been a cool season, and it was something I didn’t know I was missing. I’ve experienced a lot of amazing moments in worship and Bible study, participated in fasting or confession and engaged in many other spiritual practices, but rich community is something that I will need for the rest of my life. It’s been such a gift.

Joel: One of my favorite practices is spending intentional time in my imagination with God. God is a Creator of beauty and encounter. I try to intentionally create a space where I can disengage from the business of life and leave space for God to breathe into my mind and imagination. On a retreat this weekend in Colorado, I found a few hours to go and sit on top of a ridge that opened up to the mountains. After about 15 minutes, my scattered brain said, Hey, let’s get up and go. You have things to do. I said, There’s nothing down there worth more than this time with God. 

I spent a few hours just lying on that rock, watching the mountains and the birds flying through the air, literally feeling the earth resonate underneath me. There, God engaged my imagination and envisioned me for what he’s doing in my life. I had this creative imagination moment when I saw a mountain lion walking beside me. I felt an embrace from God at that moment, as if he said, “I am your strength. I am the lion that goes before you.” It was a reminder that the Lord of Hosts goes before you and he’s also your comfort and your strength. Sitting still for a few hours helps me to engage in those spaces. Now I can use that as a measure or a signpost. My right brain is filled with images of God and creativity, where he has given me moments of strength through my imagination.

QUESTION #7: FOCUS

Our email subscribers get free ebooks featuring our favorite resources — lots of things that have truly impacted our faith lives. But you know about some really great stuff too. What are some resources that have impacted you? 

Joel: One of my favorite game-changing, heart-changing books is “The Saint and His Saviour” by Charles Spurgeon. The over-eloquence and elaborate language continually reframe and rephrase the gospel in beautiful, creative ways. I love being reminded in unique ways of the goodness of God and man’s response to brokenness. The beauty of that writing, the quality of the sentence structures and the way words can weave meaning have been foundational for me throughout my whole life regarding reflection and relating to God.

More recently, Curt Thompson’s resources have been powerful for me, including “Anatomy of the Soul,” “The Soul of Shame,” “The Soul of Desire” and “The Deepest Place.” All of them have been so formative through my recovery journey in the last 10 years. He captures the beautiful journey of man, the shame we experience in a broken world, the restoration of the soul and the engagement in being an outpost of beauty inside of creation. He’s taught me how to engage in the role as well as how to sit through the deepest place of suffering of the heart and help restore hope and change.

Also, I can’t forget about “Practicing the Way” by John Mark Comer. He founded 423 Communities back in the day. His work has been so formative for me regarding how to follow after Jesus and engage in spiritual disciplines. Those three resources have really impacted me.

Rachel: When I think back to the beginning of our recovery journey after Joel disclosed everything, I found him reading the Book of Romans. I was so hurt and mad at him, and we were experiencing so many consequences for his sin. I distinctly remember picking up my Bible and thinking, Man, why is he so free while all these consequences are happening to us? I read the Book of Romans, and for the first time, the gospel came to life for me. I realized why this is good news! I wish things didn’t have to happen as they did, but I see how it all led to a moment where my mindset went from behavior modification to a deep relationship with Christ. I’m so thankful for it. I’m thankful for that moment and that I get to be in marriage, raise kids and have a right understanding of the gospel. So that will always be a book of the Bible that I hold dearly.

Another foundational moment for me was when our middle child was a newborn baby, and we had just walked through a lot of rejection because of Joel’s story and the details surrounding it. I was on the back porch with a little newborn on my chest as I prayed, Lord, anything. I had just gotten this book by Jennie Allen called “Made for This: 40 Days to Living Your Purpose.” I remember thinking, Lord, if we can bury our story and the details, can we just act like this never happened? But if you won’t do that, use me to help other women know that they’re not alone. You see, when we walked through our story, I felt like I was the only one this had ever happened to. The lies of the enemy were so loud, women were not coming forward to me, and I felt so isolated. But as I was reading Allen’s book and the different themes she lists to help you find your purpose, everything tied back to the most painful moments of my life. God was showing me, “Hey, I want to use this for my glory. I want to use it for the good of others, and I will restore you through that, too.” It’s been crazy to see God redeem our story and use it to allow us to share the gospel.

Aundi Kolber’s “Strong Like Water” may be the most foundational book in recovery ministry. This book has helped give me the verbiage for how I speak to women inside a group. In her book, she often talks about compassionate curiosity. I think women are often so quick to get to the solution or feel bad about how they’re feeling or thinking. But Kolber’s book showed me how to slow down and explore with these women. What is really going on? What is the root? Let’s explore that and hold that right now together. Yes, it’s painful, but it’s so worthwhile. This language has been a beautiful addition to our spaces — something I’m not sure I could have curated on my own. I’m so thankful for those words.

We all have things we cling to to survive (or thrive) in tough times. Name one resource you’ve found indispensable in this current season — and tell us what it’s done for you.

Joel: I spent much of my young adulthood and college years deep in Scripture and Christian studies. So I’m savoring a time of returning to Scripture. No work on earth is more powerful than the Word of God. It’s living and active, and it cuts through every single situation with such clarity. So diving back into cherishing Scripture is a key practice. 

Another book I’m clinging to right now is “Gentle and Lowly” by Dane Ortlund. It reveals the heart of Christ with such beautiful clarity regarding how we engage suffering, sinners and brokenness in this world as we try to live out what it means to be the body of Christ, the embodied presence of Jesus to this world. That book has been speaking so much to me as I encounter brokenness.

Also, a podcast that’s been helpful and encouraging is “The Leader’s Cut” with Preston Morrison. He’s done a phenomenal job of cutting through the Christian speech and leaning into the Spirit to guide and lead through difficult topics. I didn’t know anything about him when I landed on that podcast, but it’s been very edifying to my own journey through difficult topics and seasons of growth. Those are a few things that I’m leaning into right now that have been truly indispensable for me.

Rachel: Lately, I have been walking a lot. That’s kind of how I reprocess group times. Since integrating into our new church community, I have joined our women’s local Bible study, and it’s been beautiful to be back in the room with women. Because so much of what we do is virtual with women all over the world, just having a Bible study in person where we slowly go through the Word of God has been amazing. 

This fall and spring, we’ll be going through Luke. We’re doing a chapter each week, so it’s a slow process. I’ve found myself meditating very, very slowly on Scripture. I don’t think I’ve often listened to a book over and over and over again. But it’s causing me to see all the themes throughout Scripture, how intentional everything is and how everything truly ties together, which has helped bring those truths into my own life. If all this Scripture has been woven throughout time and space, how much is it still true in my life today? The Lord knows the whole picture. He knows the whole story, and it will all make sense over time. Being in the Word of God has been a very peaceful way to reframe those moments when life feels heavy and hard.

QUESTION #8: dream

God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?

Joel: I am so passionate about the work we’re doing with witnessing communities. I feel like it’s a growing field, with Curt Thompson taking the lead. I’m just getting to see this concept transform Christian community. Even healthy disciples can join in by learning what it means to be the embodied presence of Jesus to one another — and it’s life changing. I’m excited to be writing and dreaming and coming up with practical ways to equip people with resources that edify the body of Christ worldwide. I’m excited about putting stuff together so that individuals can begin to encounter these types of communities. That means there’s a lot of work to complete with very little time, which takes me back to trusting and relying on Jesus to do the work and give us that inspiration and power to move forward.

Rachel: Joel and I are always dreaming about new things and directions to take the ministry. There are a handful of things I’ve always had in my heart to do. One of those is a book outline that I wrote years ago. As our girls are getting a little older, there’s more time and space to write and reflect on the journey we’ve walked through. This year is also 10 years of walking in recovery post-disclosure. For many women who join our groups, one of the first questions they ask is, “How long will this take? How long is the recovery journey?” It’s hard to give them the answers because it’s not a linear journey. There’s no way to rush through it. There are 10 steps forward and five steps back. It is a difficult process. When we’re leading these groups or walking women through challenging situations, it’s wonderful for them to have the full picture of our testimony and the isolation we experienced. I would love to get those down on paper because there’s never enough time to explain all the different days I’ve had throughout this journey. That’s something I dream about and would love to be able to give to our women as well as others who might not be ready to step into a recovery group setting. I want them to know they’re not the only ones walking through this. I’m excited about the chance to write more because when I do write, the words and stories come to mind quickly and easily. I’m excited to see what the Lord does through that over time.

When the average person hears the word “addiction,” they might think about drugs or alcohol. Maybe gambling. But it’s less common to associate addiction with sexual brokenness. And yet 11% of men and 3% of women admit to being addicted to pornography. Take a closer look, and you’ll find that as much as 69% of men and 40% of women watch pornography online.

It’s a huge problem. One that calls for an even bigger solution — a mighty Healer and a loving community.

This week, we have a bold challenge for you: if you struggle with sexual brokenness, ask God who you can reach out to for support, accountability and a listening ear. No matter your struggle, you’re not alone.

Joel and Rachel Warneking are executive directors of 423 Communities International, where they are radically committed to helping others overcome all forms of unhealthy sexuality, restoring healthy sexuality and intimacy with God and others through biblically based, confessional, recovery communities. Since the inception of the recovery program in 2009, thousands of people have experienced progressive sexual restoration and healing by joining a 423 community. Joel and Rachel also provide premarital counseling services designed to support couples embarking on the journey of marriage. They are parents to three amazing daughters: Amia, Mercy and Noralee.

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