David Zahl
10 min read ⭑
“During COVID, I got into the habit of exercising outdoors four days a week with a group of other men my age—rain or shine. I find that the practice roots me in the present moment and connects me to creation in an entirely uncontrived way.”
QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT
There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?
When my family and I first moved to Charlottesville, Virginia, from New York City, there were rumors of a world-renowned Chinese chef who had set up shop incognito at a local Szechuan joint. Apparently, he’d been working at the Chinese embassy in Washington, D.C. before defecting, becoming something of a fugitive in the process.
For the next few years, this guy would pop up in a random town—Syracuse, New York, for example—word would get out, and soon there’d be lines around the block. Then, after a month or two, poof! He’d disappear again. I’m not sure how embellished any of this was, but I do know that the first time I tried his food I was transfixed, as was my wife. Eventually, the chef got his green card and was able to cook under his own name, Peter Chang, opening a restaurant in Charlottesville as a tribute to the place that had sheltered him.
We used to go there so often that our family was featured in their publicity. The food is amazing—he cooks with this “numbing spice” that tastes like nothing else—but the intrigue of the backstory adds an extra element of fun. Plus, I grew up moving every few years, including to Europe for a while, and will always go with foreign food over American if given the option.
As one of three boys, I had to elbow my way into larger portions as a kid. And as a result, I’m often worried I won’t get enough food at mealtime. So my go-to at a place like Peter Chang’s is to order far too much food and lots of variety, which I’m told makes for a fun dining experience.
Steve Harvey; Unsplash
QUESTION #2: REVEAL
We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activities do you love and help you find spiritual renewal?
I have a deep passion for pop music and record collecting. I’m always on the hunt for some rare track by a favorite band and on the prowl for a new band or artist to dig into. Sometimes it gets a little obsessive (and expensive!). There’s an investigative aspect to following the threads of various songwriters and producers and uncovering connections that I really enjoy—to say nothing of the joy of rocking out from time to time.
The older I get, the more I realize how tied to my spiritual life this interest is. I find it both comforting and exciting to see how beauty arrives in the world via the unlikeliest of vessels. I see it as an instantiation of God’s grace as well as an invitation to create more things myself.
My first book, A Mess of Help: From the Crucified Soul of Rock ’n‘ Roll, was actually an extended look at how God has used pop music to minister to me at various stages of my life. So the record store is a bit of a temple for me, and I find the act of “browsing” to be a balm—I can get lost, happily, for hours and hours. My favorite group is probably the Beach Boys, but my taste runs the gamut. A few years ago, a friend of mine and I even started a music history podcast called The Well of Sound. There’s no religious pretext to the project, which given my day job, is probably why it’s proven to be so life giving.
QUESTION #3: CONFESS
Every superhero has a weakness. Every human, too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite and how do you hide it?
Like a lot of people in ministry, I probably crave approval and acclaim to an unhealthy extent. Or at least I crave it in what can be a self-aggrandizing rather than a God-aggrandizing way. (It’s not hard to see why so many pastors and writers have a proclivity toward narcissism.) Writing about these dynamics—how dangerous it is to hang one’s self-regard on any measure of external accomplishment—does not insulate a person from them. So I’m supremely grateful for a wife and a close group of local colleagues who know me well enough to help me shut my laptop when I’m checking Amazon stats for the umpteenth time.
I remember complaining to a therapist once about someone in my orbit who was getting the attention I thought was due me. I was feeling overlooked and sorry for myself. After a short pause, she told me, in her most compassionate tone of voice, that perhaps mine were the sort of gifts that might not benefit from the spotlight. Ha!
At the time, I was a little taken aback, but as the years go on, the wisdom in her words is clear. The Lord, in his mercy, often protects us from what we want—and praise God for that. I’ve seen far too many folks start to believe their own hype and flame out to believe otherwise.
QUESTION #4: FIRE UP
Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your obsession? And why should it be ours?
2022 was the year of Low Anthropology for me. In other words, I was fortunate enough to publish a book with Brazos Press called Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself). The book’s aim was to draw on the resources of the Christian faith to address the phenomena of burnout, loneliness, and division that seem to afflict us in such acute ways these days.
My passion as a writer is really for translation, which I see as a dire need in a world where everyone talks past one another. So the book is really an attempt to make biblical notions of creatureliness, conflictedness, and sin intelligible—both intellectually and emotionally—to people who might otherwise view them as irrelevant or hostile. I also wanted to do so in a way that highlights the relief and compassion that these truths can produce without taking myself too seriously. The response has been really encouraging. Lots of tears.
I also run Mockingbird Ministries, which is a platform for connecting God’s gospel message with the concerns of everyday life. Magazines, podcasts, blogs, conferences, books, you name it. One of my favorite projects I get to oversee is our bi-weekly podcast, The Mockingcast, which seems to be speaking across a surprising number of demographics, praise God. “The last non-partisan Christian ministry in America” is how one friend described it. And while that might be a tad grandiose, it captures part of what we’re trying to do.
QUESTION #5: BOOST
Cashiers, CEOs, contractors, or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?
Anytime I start a new project, I try to canvas trusted friends and see what comes up. Just yesterday, I was brainstorming about my next book project, so I rang a friend to jumpstart that process. I walked outside and we spoke for an hour, essentially free associating. Next, I’ll call my brothers, both of whom are engaged in Christian ministry, and see what they have to say.
When I was stuck on my last book, for example, my brother Simeon, a theology professor, actually flew from the U.K. (where he lives) to the States to brainstorm with me for a few days. He had just been teaching a class on Philip Melanchthon and had stumbled over the perfect quote to get us moving on to the next chapter. Total lifesaver!
The hope is to assemble various strands of ideas and then allow those ideas to steep over the following few weeks and months. Basically, I sit back, say a few prayers, and see what happens. I find invariably that the Holy Spirit makes all sorts of incredible connections.
By way of another example, when I was writing the introduction to Low Anthropology, I tried a bunch of different angles to illustrate imposter syndrome. It was all sounding too pat. Then, out of the blue, I got a random email from a student at our church saying they couldn’t meet me for lunch, expressing an urgent fear about being outclassed in their pre-med program. They actually said the words, “I feel like I’m the only one who doesn’t belong!” It was uncanny and wholly of God.
QUESTION #6: inspire
Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied actions that open our hearts to the presence of God. So spill it, which spiritual practice is workin’ best for you right now?
It may sound boring, but my most reliable spiritual practice is ... going to church. Since I’m on staff at our church (Christ Episcopal in Charlottesville), I often have to be there for several services each Sunday. As the day goes on, the liturgy has a way of sinking in deeper so that by the time our 5 p.m. service rolls around, I feel like I’m actually talking to God (and not at work). I’ve also come to savor the pauses and silences in the service in ways that would shock my 10-year-old self.
During COVID, I also got into the habit of exercising outdoors four days a week with a group of other men my age—rain or shine. I find that the practice roots me in the present moment and connects me to creation in an entirely uncontrived way. By the time the workout is over, I’m out of my head and feeling grateful for the world as it actually is. It probably helps that each workout ends with a short reflection from one of the guys—sometimes spiritual, sometimes not, but always heartfelt. This has a way of cutting through the noise of modern life. The endorphins are pretty great, too.
QUESTION #7: FOCUS
Our email subscribers get free ebooks featuring our favorite resources—lots of things that have truly impacted our faith lives. But you know about some really great stuff, too. What are some resources that have impacted you?
The books of Robert Farrar Capon have been tremendously influential on my work, not least because of the playfulness with which he approaches matters of faith and salvation. Unlike many religious authors, he doesn’t seem to be overly concerned with coloring within the lines, and I find that spirit refreshing and inspiring. He writes like a free man with no fingers crossed when it comes to the grace of God. Or food.
I also find the work of Swiss-British pop philosopher Alain de Botton inspiring, in particular his gift for communicating the deepest truths of human nature in terms that contemporary people can understand. While de Botton goes to pains to identify as non-religious (he famously wrote a book called Religion for Atheists), he seems to get the faith on a more profound level than most believers, and he tends to make me more excited about my faith than most of my co-religionists do. His book The School of Life should be taught in seminaries as a manual for pastoral care.
Thirdly, I was fortunate enough to have a wonderful therapist and teacher for many years named Dorothy Martyn. Before she died a few years ago, she wrote a book called Beyond Deserving, which I turn to often for guidance. It’s technically a work of Freudian child psychology, albeit one heavily imbued with the poetry of Emily Dickinson and the theology of Karl Barth. She helped me through the growing pains of “adultescence,” and her book lights my way still.
We all have things we cling to to survive (or thrive) in tough times. Name one resource you’ve found indispensable in this current season—and tell us what it’s done for you.
I’ve found the most sustenance this past year in the writing of musician Nick Cave. Cave has a newsletter called The Red Hand Files where he answers questions from the internet peanut gallery, and I find that his work, aside from being reliably vertical (i.e. God-focused), frequently moves me to tears.
Cave has had to bury not one but two children, which clearly informs his unflinching view of things, particularly the nature of loss and beauty. But his perspective is also a deeply hopeful one, trustworthily so, saturated by a fixation on Jesus. He has a way of putting beautiful language around difficult subjects with thorough-going compassion and poetry. A book called Faith, Hope, and Carnage came out this year that explores Cave’s soul at greater length, although I recommend the audio version as he narrates.
I would also highly recommend that social media users check out the work of Andy Squyres. It’s difficult to describe his work without seeing it (part photo essay, part devotional with a genuinely prophetic yet grace-filled edge). But I’d wager he is using Instagram as redemptively as anyone could. His music is incredible, too.
When it comes to quasi-devotional music, I love Natalie Bergman’s record Mercy to be a salve during a season of sadness. And John Hendrix’s hilarious, touching collection of theology-informed comic strips, The Holy Ghost, is a treasure worth seeking out. It fell into my hands at a time when I needed to smile.
QUESTION #8: dream
God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?
I’ve got at least one more book I want to write, which is in the outlining stage, but I’m not quite ready to share it. The most pressing thing right now is to get a little rest after a hectic few months promoting Low Anthropology.
Other than that, I feel like I’m in one of those periods when I’m asking God what’s next. He hasn’t left me hanging thus far, and I’m fairly confident he won’t this time either! But definitely more Mockingcast in the new year. More Mockingbird magazines, articles, and conferences. And a third season of The Brothers Zahl podcast.
I have an idea for a movie script that I may toy with, too. We shall see!
We live in a fallen world. And no matter how much you may try to protect yourself—or the ones you love—there’s no way to fully escape the hurts and hardships of this world of ours.
But does that mean we have to give up hope? What if there was a way to find joy and peace and meaning—even in the middle of suffering? What if our hardships were meant to be shared?
That, friend, is one of the beautiful things Jesus offers us. And we think this quote from Nick Cave (whose work David recommends above) points to it well:
“Yet happiness and joy continue to burst through this mutual condition. Life, it seems, is full of an insistent, systemic and irrepressible beauty. But these moments of happiness are not experienced alone, rather they are almost entirely relational and are dependent on a connection to the Other—be it people, or nature, or art, or God. This is where meaning establishes itself, within the connectedness, nested in our shared suffering.”
David Zahl is the founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries, editor-in-chief of the Mockingbird website, and co-host of The Mockingcast. He and his family live in Charlottesville, Virginia, where he also serves on the staff of Christ Episcopal Church. Zahl is the author of Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What To Do About It and coauthor of Law and Gospel: A Theology for Sinners (and Saints). His most recent book, Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself) came out in September 2022 from Brazos Press.
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