RAPT Interviews

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Lucretia Carter Berry

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QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT

There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?

Virginia Thompson’s kitchen table was the place to be on Sundays after church. My mom, her siblings and their children gathered in a weekly rhythm of worship at our community church followed by family, food and fun at Grandma Virginia’s house. Her cooking summoned folks, including the church pastor, longing to taste and see God’s goodness through her hands, and pots and pans.

She knew how to cultivate a sense of belonging — how to make a small living room welcome a multitude of folks beyond its capacity. “Come on in and fix you a plate,” she’d insist.

When I left Winston-Salem, North Carolina, to attend college in South Carolina and then Iowa, I greatly missed the table of belonging she set each Sunday.

But everyone knew that I was back home visiting from college when they walked into her kitchen and saw her table adorned with honey-baked ham, deviled eggs, macaroni and cheese, and chocolate cake.

Although I was one of a gazillion grandchildren, Grandma Virginia saw me. I felt loved when she accentuated my home-from-college visits by feeding everyone my Sunday-after-church favorite foods. Today, although I am not a foodie (I don’t care that much about food at all), her way of loving me through food sticks to my ribs and warms my soul. To this day, on the occasion that I eat honey-baked ham, deviled eggs, macaroni and cheese, or chocolate cake, I taste her undeniable love.

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Gaelle Marcel; Unsplash

QUESTION #2: REVEAL

We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activities do you love and help you find spiritual renewal?

Last year, I injured my MCL (medial collateral ligament). What was most excruciating was watching trending dance reels on Instagram and not being able to participate. Dance is the love language of the divine.

Growing up, I was a student at the local dance studio, where I was trained in classical ballet, traditional tap and jazz. And my charismatic family culture welcomed dance at all wedding receptions, banquets and milestone birthday parties.

I danced in the show choir in high school. I was on the step team in college. I was on the dance team at church. Once at a church conference, I was intrigued by a session called, “Prophetic Dance!” It was described as a combination of prayer and movement in obedience to the Holy Spirit’s prompting. Needless to say, it sounded like a good time, so I participated.

I have found dance to be a refreshing recourse in every aspect of life. My favorite go-to dance is simply shaking my booty to Beyoncé! It’s easy. It’s fun. It releases stress and trauma from the body. My bones love feeling the vibration of the music’s bass as it calls me to live.

QUESTION #3: CONFESS

Every superhero has a weakness. Every human, too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite and how do you hide it?

For me, when someone intentionally hurts me, the path to forgiveness can be exhausting. Trying to forgive them is like wrestling with a mammoth-sized, prehistoric, octopus creature — the enormity of its grabby arms squeezing and sucking the life out of me. Forgiveness feels like a losing battle. And feeling like a loser, I am rewarded with shame. Perhaps you’re familiar with Marianne Williamson’s quote: “Unforgiveness is like drinking poison yourself and waiting for the other person to die.” Well, drinking the poison seems easier than exerting the strength to forgive. And when I am in extreme pain due to the offense, I am numb to the poison of unforgiveness.

In these moments, I’m terrified that unforgiveness will be the death of me, that God will discount me. It doesn’t seem fair or logical to be burdened with the consequence of forgiveness. Think about it. Someone wrongs you, and then you have to do the work of healing yourself and forgiving them. I feel like it’s too much to ask. Honestly, I want the person who hurt me to suffer. But I know that more suffering is not what we need in this world. And I have learned that for me, unforgiveness eventually loosens its chokehold on me. Graced with time, I can see the light of forgiveness.

QUESTION #4: FIRE UP

Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your obsession? And why should it be ours?

Education to revelation to transformation to liberation — this is the journey I was invited to walk decades ago when God introduced me to racial healing.

Back then, I could not see the path marked before me clearly. I simply said yes to seeing the construct of race differently than I had before. In 1997, as a doctoral student, I enrolled in a series of antiracism education courses. The formal instruction helped me gain a revelatory understanding of race and racism, which led to a personal transformation.

Decades later in 2015, when friends asked me to help them understand the schismatic racial climate, my inner healing is the wellspring from which I drew to create educational courses that foster and support racial healing, justice and belonging.

A former college professor of education, I founded Brownicity (pronounced like ‘ethnicity’) to make scholarly informed, antiracism education accessible so we can foster racial healing and inspire a culture of true belonging and justice for all. My TEDx talk in 2017, “Children Will Light up the World if We Don’t Keep Them in the Dark,” illuminates my hopeful heart for humanity.

Along with being a contributor to Day Spring’s online community, (in)courage.me, I’ve also written:

1. “Hues of You: An Activity Book for Learning About the Skin You Are In” (2022) gives caregivers and kids an interactive, engaging and developmentally appropriate way to build understanding and appreciation around phenotype, culture, ethnicity and race.

2. “What LIES Between Us: Fostering First Steps Toward Racial Healing” (2016) is a study guide for the curriculum designed to offer learners a scholarly informed understanding of race and racism to equip them for engaging in life-giving solutions.

3. I also co-authored “Teaching for Justice and Belonging: A Journey for Educators and Parents” (August 2022) with Dr. Tehia Starker Glass to help educators and caregivers transform learning environments into the just and liberated spaces we all deserve.

Essentially, I am a professional educator who loves Jesus and believes we all can heal from the psychological, social, and structural wounds of race and racism when we first fully understand them. The stuff I create — courses, learning communities, books and so on — are tools to help us build the just society we long for and deserve.

QUESTION #5: BOOST

Cashiers, CEOs, contractors or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?

“God wants you to do something big!” she prayed over me. I politely smiled. I felt she was right, in the general sense that God wants us all to do “something.” And “big” is relative.

“Do you know what it is?” she asked. I shook my head, looking up and searching my mind as if I might find the answer in a distant memory.

“No,” I said with authentic cluelessness.

She seemed a little surprised that I didn’t know. She paused in anticipation of the Holy Spirit’s next instruction for me. “Write!” she said. “Do you write?”

“No,” I replied, committed to my confusion. I was sure she had the wrong person.

“Start writing, journaling and it will come. It will come through your writing.”

I nodded with a slight shrug of indifference and merged back into the crowd of women attending the conference.

Months later, I noticed that I was journaling more — my journal, a vessel filled to capacity as I poured out prose and poetry. Writing had become an exclamation mark accentuating the things that consumed my heart. I’d swell with cares and concerns for the community around me in a way that felt new, strong and heavy. But what had changed?

I hadn’t noticed a theme in my writing until I paused and allowed it to speak back to me. It shouted with clarity. I recalled the praying woman who wielded words that seemed empty at the time. But now, her words exploded with meaning. “Big” meant heavy, hard, cumbersome and significant. I did not want to be the Black woman burdened with addressing our nation’s festering wound of racism.

I yelled at God, “No! I don’t want to do this!”

But his encouraging hand remained on my back, pressing me forward.

QUESTION #6: inspire

Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied actions that open our hearts to the presence of God. So spill it, which spiritual practice is workin’ best for you right now?

I don’t fit prayer into my day; I fit my day into prayer.

I move through my day conscious of my connection to the One who creates for and through me — because I know I am an extension of God’s energy, love and light each day. I am like an artist painting the day as God’s masterpiece. I rise like a ready writer eager to pen words that align my moments with God’s thoughts. I become like a sharpened sword rested in the grip of a skillful and wise warrior whose battle is already won. My day is prayer in motion — breathing, living and creating.

I remain in constant conversation with the Holy Spirit. I posture myself as a perpetual learner, curious and hungry, longing to be nourished by my Source. Although I have daily to-dos like taking our children to school, teaching my students the lesson I prepared, walking the puppies, making dinner and so on, I dare not assume that I know how the day is going to unfold.

In the morning, I ask the Lord, “What have you orchestrated for today?” And I know that I will receive an answer in some form — perhaps audibly or a sensation or a gentle guiding. Either way, I rest in the certainty that I am linked and synched to a life-giving Reservoir.

Also, when I make time to journal, my heart and my fingers engage in a dance that requires God’s presence. I request. I reflect. I remember. I’m held together by the reading and re-reading of the written record, remaining in constant contact with God’s faithfulness.

Before I write and speak publicly, I spend an abundance of time writing and speaking with God.

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QUESTION #7: FOCUS

Our email subscribers get free ebooks featuring our favorite resources — lots of things that have truly impacted our faith lives. But you know about some really great stuff, too. What are some resources that have impacted you?

Some of my favorite resources are educationally refreshing and intriguing. The NOOMA series of short films featuring teacher and (at the time) pastor Rob Bell stirred my imagination about Jesus’ intention, attention and affection. The films illuminated the Bible’s stories in ways that resonated with the way God designed me to be curious, to question and to value learning.

The perspectives presented in the films not only stirred my imagination but also stirred my heart. They came during a time when, as a youth pastor’s wife with a Ph.D. in education, I felt invisible and unappreciated in the church. The church seemed to say, “Be quiet and cute. No one cares about your brain. As a matter of fact, just turn your brain off and give faithfully and financially.” The NOOMA series reflected God’s design and appreciation for wonder, exploration and discovery.

The blinders, the ball and chain, and every imposed inhibitor seemed to be exposed and obliterated when I read “The Artisan Soul: Crafting Your Life into a Work of Art” by Erwin Raphael McManus. I had aligned myself with a cultural church practice in which inspiration and the invitation to create must come from the top — and by “top,” I don’t mean God. I had internalized that I needed a leader’s permission to imagine, create and give to the world what God stirred within me. I had been waiting for a church “leader” to see and invite me to manifest the vision that God gave me.

McManus’ words were a clarion call to stop waiting for permission from mere men to glorify God. Hitler, the KKK and other tormentors of the world did (and do) not ask for permission to wreak havoc. Why should those of us who want to bring healing to the world ask and wait for permission?

We all have things we cling to to survive (or thrive) in tough times. Name one resource you’ve found indispensable in this current season — and tell us what it’s done for you.

The Magic” by Rhonda Byrne offers a deep dive into Matthew 25:29: “For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away” (ESV). Byrne refers to gratitude when talking about the “has” and “does not have” in this passage.

To put it differently, “For to everyone who has gratitude will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who does not have gratitude, even what he has will be taken away.”

Each chapter highlights an area in my life for which to be grateful — for example, health, relationships and yes, even money. Each chapter teaches perspectives and postures for how gratitude should show up in my life. And each chapter concludes with meticulous exercises and practices for counting my blessings one by one to prioritize gratitude. As I walked through the book, I realized how much I take for granted as a result of overfamiliarity and comfort.

Engaging in the exercises and practices requires an incredible amount of journaling, reflecting, seeking and discovery. I must admit, to be able to practice gratitude for money required me to do a lot of reflecting, seeking and reconciling.

After completing the book, I’m free to start again from the beginning and continue expanding my gratitude. I can never be too grateful.

I incorporated a particular practice into the morning carpool routine with my children. I ask, “Today, what are you grateful for about yourself? What are you grateful for beyond yourself?” As each of us answers, we begin our day by being thankful.

I conclude my day by remembering the blessings of the day and looking forward to the blessings that will overtake me tomorrow.

QUESTION #8: dream

God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?

Good news: We have been prompted to shift from a society with deep roots in racial injustice to become a culture brimming with justice and belonging. Cultivating a society in fairness where everyone feels at home is feasible. However, cultivation is a lengthy, intricate and intentional process.

Not-so-good news: To meet this demand, we’ve been urgently handed the “all we need is love/Jesus” talk, DIY book study small groups, or a speaker of color at a conference. None of these alone or collectively are enough to support the sustainable, developmentally appropriate growth journey we need. Meanwhile, amid politically divisive culture wars, the resistance against normalizing justice and belonging is suffocating, confusing and discouraging us.

Currently, many people who are forced to lead in this area — especially in the church — have little education and even less personal experience navigating the arduous yet rewarding journey of antiracism. I’ve witnessed White church leaders prop up their parishioners of color to lead the way and do all the heavy lifting. I see people substitute education designed to grow them to create change with engagement in snarky social media posts that offer emotional echo chambers. And while we remain uninformed and ill-equipped, our light fades further into the darkness we’ve been invited to dissipate.

My collaboration with Dr. Tehia Starker Glass captured what a developmentally appropriate, healthy, sustainable, growth journey can look like for educators and caregivers. We aligned our approach with a gardening metaphor to emphasize the significance of endowed growth intelligence, intentional strategic practices, persistence and patience. As with learning any complex and complicated concept or topic (for example, calculus or physics), we can gain competency and proficiency when it’s broken down into comprehensible parts or stages. While the antiracism journey can be challenging, with clarity of vision, understanding and commitment, we can avoid unnecessary hardships and stumbling blocks.

Likewise, my next project will expand on this journey. I will vulnerably expose my own movement from knowing little about race, the man-made construct that we allow to inform our lives more than God, to seeing and aligning myself with God’s perspective and desire for us to be free from the dehumanizing ideology of race. It’s quite a story. I am terrified to share my story as I know it will prompt people to reflect, ponder and discover in ways that will require them to think and reconsider. Folks won’t like that. One of the reasons that racial injustice remains with us today is that our society has found it easier and more suitable to live with it than to exert the energy to extract it. I will continue to offer, show and write about a strategic, guided and supported way forward.

When it comes to deep, difficult topics like race and racism, our culture tends to settle for answers that seem easy.

We may nod approvingly when a speaker talks about the evils of racism or maybe even post something on Instagram to express our indignation at yet another act of injustice. But Lucretia’s message calls us to something bigger and more important.

She challenges us to take a step of faith and action that starts in our own hearts. But it isn’t meant to stay there. As we allow God to align our minds with his perspective on culture, ethnicity and humanity, we’re also called to take that perspective to the world around us — so that we can “let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream” (Amos 5:24, ESV).


Lucretia Carter Berry, Ph.D., is the founder of Brownicity, an agency committed to making scholarly informed, antiracism education accessible. Brownicity’s mission is to foster education designed to inspire a culture of justice and true belonging for all. A former college professor, Lucretia’s research, experience and accomplishments lie at the intersections of curriculum and instruction, antiracism education and instructional technology. As a wife in an interracial marriage and mom of three, Lucretia brings her personal and professional experience to the public sector, where she passionately serves children and their adult decision-makers. Her learning-centered approach is inspirational, appreciated and celebrated.


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