Preston Ulmer

Jul 26

10 min read ⭑

“I am consumed with helping people untether themselves from unhealthy religious practices so they can create spaces where the doubter, skeptic and spiritually wounded are welcome.”

Have you ever found it difficult to preserve friendship with people who see life from an opposing perspective? Have you wondered how to create true relationships with those whose beliefs aren’t like your own? Preston Ulmer has some wisdom to share on this subject as an author, Spiritual Formation Director and founder and director of the Doubters’ Club, an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. In this interview, Preston shares how everything changed for him when he sought authentic friendship with people with differing beliefs, how he carves out time for silence even when he finds it deafening, and how seeing from new perspectives can lead to strengthened faith.

QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT

There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?

My dad is retired from the military, so home has never been where we planted roots. Moving every three years didn't make that possible. Plus, the restaurants on the Air Force base didn’t have much going for them. My hometown has become Springfield, MO, since (technically) I have lived here longer than anywhere else as an adult. That being said, home has to include who is with you and how much joy and authenticity is in that place. So when I think of my go-to hometown restaurant, I think of going to Brown Derby International Wine Center and Deli with my wife, Lisa. It’s where we like to go for lunch when the kids are in school. The tables are small, so the atmosphere lends itself to a more one-on-one feel. We always order the chicken salad with soup. It sounds like such a mature, old-person thing to do. Salad and soup at the local winery and deli. However, maybe that’s why I love it so much!

With two healthy, outgoing daughters, sometimes our meal choices can disintegrate into fast food on our way to the next swim meet, volleyball practice or church activity. At Brown Derby, we slow down to eat, drink and talk. We know the managers there and love to hear about their latest trip to Italy or Arkansas. The wifi there is terrible, so our natural impulse to be busy is put to rest. We talk about whatever is on our hearts as we savor a meal that can’t be found anywhere else. Brown Derby also has locally made candles, jams and cheeses. It’s like being in an air-conditioned farmers market. When there is nothing to talk about, we get to experience the local world around us. I’m sure I’ll share meals with my daughters there when they are older, and when I do I may even tell them, “This is my favorite hometown restaurant.”

Alley in Paris, France — Rosalind Chang; Unsplash

QUESTION #2: REVEAL

We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So, what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activities do you love and help you find spiritual renewal?

I am fascinated by major cities. When I travel to them, I get to the hotel as soon as I can, change clothes, and go for a walk in the city. There’s no real destination. I’m not interested in getting somewhere. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. I’m interested in knowing the city, not my way around it. I want to know the people who fill the city. Who makes the best pastry in town? Not what cafe — who! I pay attention to the smells. The smells change quicker than the time. Sometimes the smells make you walk faster. Other times they make you slow down. My family used to live in a big city, but four years ago we moved to Springfield. Don’t get me wrong, I truly love Springfield. But my dream is to live in a big city again where there is more of everything.

Why not move (you may ask)? My family is thriving where we currently live. And Springfield isn’t just where we live, it’s where we love. Our neighbors, church and friends have all captured our hearts and deepened our lives. So while I long to get lost in a bigger city, I’m reminded that Springfield is where we have been found. In a strange way, visiting cities teaches me contentment. San Diego has nothing on swimming with the kids at my neighborhood pool. Orlando street tacos don’t beat the driveway potlucks with my neighbors. Big cities have become divine destinations because it’s there that I find contentment and gratitude for this season.

QUESTION #3: CONFESS

Every superhero has a weakness. Every human, too. We're just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite and how do you hide it?

I have an unhealthy relationship with silence. In fact, I’m answering this question in a busy coffee shop where you can’t hear the quiet transitions of the songs over the grinding coffee and chatter of friends. Silence is deafening for me. As a Spiritual Formation Director and author, you would think I would be more prone to the noiseless life. Unfortunately, it’s the opposite. If you came over to the house, you would notice my obsession with Alexa playing music in the background. If we were in the car together on a road trip, you would be lucky to get five minutes of silence from me.

In all honesty, I think it comes from my battle with anxiety. I experience anxiety most around big transitions in life, but it’s always a constant in my life. I’m in a season where I am working through this with my counselor. “Working on it” is the key phrase. I’m journeying toward silence to see what happens. Sometimes it feels like I am grabbing an electric fence. Other times I find it peaceful. Peaceful. I hunger and thirst for that.

QUESTION #4: FIRE UP

Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your obsession? And why should it be ours?

I am consumed with helping people untether themselves from unhealthy religious practices so they can create spaces where the doubter, skeptic and spiritually wounded are welcome. Not just welcome, but where two become friends regardless of whether they ever believe the same thing. Although we still have a long way to go when it comes to building bridges where there are barriers, this has become my life’s work.

When we lived in Denver years ago, I started an organization called the Doubters’ Club with a friend who didn’t think like me at all when it came to religion. The vision for that group was to have two co-moderators who don’t think like each other (in this instance, a Christian and an atheist) model friendship and pursue truth with one another. Since then, we have started Doubters’ Clubs around the world. In fact, my first book, “The Doubters' Club: Good-Faith Conversations with Skeptics, Atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded,” isn’t my attempt at franchising the organization. Quite the opposite! It was written to help people live this out as a lifestyle. What I learned through these groups is how evangelical Christians have a way of demonizing those who are answering questions differently than they are. It’s repulsive when you realize how much idolatry is involved in being a certainty-seeking Christian. Many Christians liken the word deconstruct with destruction or deconversion, so I did a deep dive and have become a huge advocate for deconstructing faith.

My newest book, “Deconstruct Faith, Discover Jesus: How Questioning Your Religion Can Lead You to a Healthy and Holy God,” was written out of this passion. I guess I would say everything changed for me when I started having meaningful relationships with those unlike me. I should also clarify that these relationships are not so that they would be converted to Christianity. There is no ulterior motive. Just friendship. Communities of authentic friendship without ulterior motives — that's my life mission. Starting with the ones who compromise that most often: my own tribe — Western Christianity.

QUESTION #5: BOOST

Cashiers, CEOs, contractors, or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it's God when it happens?

I wish there was a place called Inspirationville where we could all go to feel inspired toward whatever goal we had. Instead, we have the monotony of life that pushes good ideas and fresh perspectives to the backburner. I’m a dad, husband, pastor and soccer coach for 8-year-olds. I get it! When it comes to writing, inspiration comes to me not as an event, but as a filter or a lens by which I start to interpret events and information. Notes on my phone becomes the most frequently used app as I write down illustrations or ideas that I hadn’t experienced before.

In my last book, “Deconstruct Faith Discover Jesus,” I remember watching the Disney movie “Encanto” with my daughters. Part of the major plot line of the movie is a character named Bruno. I know “we don’t talk about Bruno,” but…he hides in the walls of his own home because his family can’t handle the radical candor of his forthtelling and foretelling. All of a sudden, it occurred to me that Jesus hides in the walls of the church. He loves the family of God but has been pushed out by many traditions and practices. Furthermore, in “Encanto,” there is a scene where Bruno eats at a table inside the walls of the house while the family is eating at the dining room table. That’s where one of my favorite lines in my book came from: “We are eating at tables Jesus would have flipped, and we are flipping tables Jesus would be eating at.” Seasons of writing give me a new lens, and I lean heavily into writing down most things I feel, see and experience. Fresh perspectives are my inspiration.

QUESTION #6: inspire

Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied actions that open our hearts to the presence of God. So spill it, which spiritual practice is workin’ best for you right now?

One practice that I have been leaning pretty heavily into has been Examen Prayer. Examen Prayer was developed by Ignatius of Loyola, and it’s a great way to see God’s goodness in all things while inviting him into things that are yet to be. I like to lie on my back in a comfortable position, cross my hands on my stomach, close my eyes and face the silence. After about a minute of deep breathing, I meditate on 1 John 1:5: “pure light undimmed by darkness of any kind.” Then I think through every moment of that day to consider where God was shining through. Most of the time, these are moments that I overlooked but can see clearly during prayer. As I notice them, I thank God for his unwavering goodness and commitment to me.

The more I do this, the more aware I am of God in real time. I’ve even noticed I wake up with an anticipation that God is with me! After replaying my day, I think about the day to come. I think about tomorrow. I invite him into the spaces that I would naturally resist him. From my thinking to my actions, this practice gives the Holy Spirit an opportunity to truly search me. If you read one of the questions earlier, you can also see how this helps me become more comfortable with the quiet.

QUESTION #7: FOCUS

Our email subscribers get free ebooks featuring our favorite resources — lots of things that have truly impacted our faith lives. But you know about some really great stuff, too. What are some resources that have impacted you?

If there was ever a book that blurred the lines for me and set my trajectory toward a more generous orthodoxy, it would have to be “The Great Divorce” by C.S. Lewis. I read that book twice in one sitting while in an airport. I was so intrigued by the ambiguity around doctrines that we usually act so certain on (namely Heaven and Hell). It felt more right. I remember feeling like this book made me want a life with God all over again.

If you are a podcast listener, I would have to recommend “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.” That podcast audits the use of power in the church and helps spotlight areas where we all are susceptible. For me, it was like a doctor explaining where cancer grows. It’s especially helpful that it was produced by Christianity Today.

For non-readers and non-podcast listeners, I would recommend the movie “Big Fish.” The last time I tried watching this with my oldest daughter, she reminded me how old it looked. “Timeless and true!” I told her. Big Fish always reminds me that there is never a story that isn’t worth telling. It brings meaning to the parts of life we typically overlook.

We all have things we cling to to survive (or thrive) in tough times. Name one resource you’ve found indispensable in this current season — and tell us what it's done for you.

A current, indispensable resource for me is a podcast called “The Dr. John Delony Show.” John is a mental health expert who hosts a caller-driven show every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. He also has a book called “Own Your Past Change Your Future: A Not-So-Complicated Approach to Relationships, Mental Health & Wellness” that I would recommend. The Dr. John Delony Show is a regular topic of discussion in our home. He gives language to a new, healthier way of showing up in the world. Much of what he talks about has to do with creating a peaceful life and then setting the boundaries in place to protect that space. People call in with all kinds of issues, and John walks them through some very practical next steps. He also has some cards called “Questions for Humans” that are conversation starters for times with your spouse, with your kids or in your workplace. We have all the decks of cards and use them regularly.

QUESTION #8: dream

God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?

Honestly, I know it’s a specific lane that I am called to, and I believe we are just getting started! I can’t share everything here, but the future definitely entails more writing. Not just standard books though. I often think about an illustrated children's book that sparks really good faith conversations between a parent and a child. Possibly multiple books in this genre that help parents hold their kids tighter than doctrine. I realize my current books aren’t for kids, but much of the tragedy found in some of the stories could have been avoided if parents and kids started thinking together earlier on. I can say with confidence that I want to keep on writing for as long as it is making a difference in people’s lives. Doubters’ Clubs are certainly part of the future! The Doubters’ Club has locations around the world, but what if we started hosting live Doubters’ Clubs on college campuses? What if homes had them? What if the Doubters’ Club was able to have counselors who specialize in religious trauma? People always ask me, “Why don’t you do the Doubters’ Club full time and write?” Perhaps that is part of the future as well. God is leading me to continue on this path that is drawing Christians and non-Christians to spaces outside the four walls of the church. I’m thrilled to give my life to that mission!

Preston has spent his life carving out deep relationships with people who see life from a different perspective, and he has the wisdom and authenticity to show for it. How do you handle relationships with friends, family, neighbors and coworkers who are vastly different from you? How can you press into these relationships with a renewed love and grace, making friendship the goal? How can you invite the Holy Spirit into your interactions to give you a fresh perspective?

Preston Ulmer is the founder and director of the Doubters’ Club, an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. Additionally, he serves as the Spiritual Formation Director for North Point Church. Preston has two master’s degrees, one in religion and one in divinity. His experience and education led him and his family to plant a church in Denver, CO, where he also founded the Doubters’ Club. Preston has written two books with NavPress/Tyndale: The Doubters’ Club: Good-Faith Conversations with Skeptics, Atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded, and his most recent book, Deconstruct Faith, Discover Jesus: How Questioning Your Religion Can Lead You to a Healthy and Holy God.