“God became what we are that we might become what he is.” This was St. Athanasius’ argument 1,600 years ago — and it’s Russell Joyce’s life message today. Born with a rare disorder called Goldenhar Syndrome, Russell understands soul wounds like insecurity and inadequacy. But in those struggles, he’s encountered the incredible healing power of Jesus’ love — the love that drove him to become a frail human being like us so we could become holy like him.

Russell shares this simple yet life-changing message in his latest book, His Face Like Mine, as well as in his daily work as a senior pastor, co-host of the “Same Jesus Podcast” and the Foursquare Church’s national director of church planting. Want to learn more about the story behind his book, how he’s growing spiritually as a busy dad and the resources that are guiding him toward sanctification? We’re covering all this and more in today’s interview.

QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT

There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?

There was a string of adult cafeterias (yes, you read that correctly — adult cafeterias) where I grew up called K&S Cafeteria, or sometimes K&W Cafeteria. We don’t know if K divorced S and remarried W or if there are two different K’s. The mystery was part of the allure. Birthdays, holidays and even graduations (yes, once again, you read correctly — graduations) were celebrated here. My family went for the seven-layer salad. And by “salad,” I mean a sweet mayonnaise that caked each lettuce leaf, and by “layers,” I mean different kinds of cheese and bacon bits. But this was our spot. It was cheap (I’m not sure if you already gathered that). It was predictable. It was a story!

When my wife and I met in Portland, Oregon, there was a breakfast diner down the block called Cricket Café. It was the type of small where you had to angle your body like a game of tetris to get to your seat. The coffee was black and bitter. And the breakfast sandwiches were cheap, hot and flaky, with generous amounts of eggs and cheese.

Honestly, now that I’m thinking about it, I’m noticing some themes. I guess meals for me are unpretentious affairs. I want to be where the people are. And at least in my life, “the people” have been those who call mayonnaise salad, where the story of the place is just as important as the food, where you can apparently never have enough cheese and where the characteristic side dish to an especially great meal is laughter.

QUESTION #2: REVEAL

We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activity (or activities) do you love engaging in, which also helps you find essential spiritual renewal?

I love a good game! I grew up the middle of three brothers, so competition was my birthright. Anything with a ball, stick, racket, rope, inside, outside, day, night (night games were the best!), real games, made-up games or board games — I love games. I know I’m at my healthiest emotionally when I desire to play. Presently, with two young sons (aged 3 and 2), the games I play are less — how shall we say — stimulating. A lot of let’s-destroy-this-and-dad-can-put-it-back-together games.

I’ve found that games have a profound ability to remind me of two things. The first is what C.S. Lewis famously wrote: “Joy is the serious business of heaven.” I think all that imagery in the Scriptures of heaven feeling like a wedding reception points to the indisputable fact that there will be eternal cornhole tournaments. Games remind me that living is a gift! And God gave it to us to enjoy.

But the second is more significant. If the primary way Jesus taught us to think of God is as our Father, then I need to remember that the weight of the world is not upon my shoulders but his. This does not mean I shirk responsibility to pick up my cross and follow Jesus. But it does mean that the saving work is not up to me but him. Games remind me who’s in charge, who’s in control and my place in this story. I can relax a little, not take myself so seriously, and know that even if I unintentionally play a little let’s-destroy-this-and-dad-can-put-it-back-together-type of game in my life, he will. Because he’s a good Father and he loves us. Besides, games work up an appetite, and that seven-layer salad tastes even better with a little sweat on your brow.

QUESTION #3: CONFESS

Every superhero has a weakness. Every human, too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite, and how do you hide it?

Overwork. Not in a falsely modest way, either. I have been genetically designed and societally conditioned to work too hard. This is probably why I know I’m healthy when I’m eager to play games. Part of my proclivity to overwork is related to my story (which I write about in “His Face Like Mine”). I was born with a craniofacial disorder called Goldenhar Syndrome. Most of my life, I internalized a deep belief that I was ugly, and the world taught me that ugly things don’t receive love. But I saw that successful things do. I developed a ferocious work ethic and desire to succeed as a way of overcompensating for my perceived shortcomings.

It’s easy to hide that in America because Uncle Sam rewards those willing to work harder than the rest. Even the church. My friend AJ has pointed out that if pastors break nine out of the Ten Commandments, they’ll be immediately fired. But if they break God’s commandment to honor the Sabbath and take a rest, they may just get a raise. This culture of burning both ends of the candle is deep in our collective psyche. Hiding it wasn’t the issue. Rather, believing it to be a lie of Satan and a transgression of God’s heart for his people was.

The Lord graciously met me in my wounded nature and offered a very different take on how he saw me, which I write about in the book. But humans can sink back into old habits fast, and when I’m pounding the pavement a little too much, I can be sure it’s because I’m not believing my new identity in Christ but dancing a little too comfortably with my old one.

QUESTION #4: FIRE UP

Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your current obsession? And why should it be ours?

I just released my first book titled “His Face Like Mine: Finding God’s Love in Our Wounds.” It’s a personal story about being born with a craniofacial disorder, how that disorder was intimately connected to deep wounds in my soul acquired during my life, and how Jesus met me in my soul’s wounds with a love so powerful I still can scarcely describe it without getting emotional. The best part about this love, though, was that it came into my wounds through Jesus’ own. That was the shocking plot twist! God did not save me despite my wounds but by embodying his own.

The central thesis of the book was written by St. Athanasius thousands of years ago when he articulated, “God became like us that we might become like him.” I believe there are layers to our human experience where we have no issue believing that Jesus became like us. But what I found within me was that there were other deeper, more painful, more personal and wounded layers of my soul’s human experience that I actually did not think Jesus knew about or was acquainted with or loved. In effect, we haven’t thought deeply enough about what it means that God became fully human. For me, what that meant was that God’s face in Jesus became just like my broken one. He embodied his own broken face because he loved me and wanted to be with me and heal me.

This book reveals our faulty theology and God’s ridiculously good love. The hope is that as you see what Jesus did in my wounded soul and story, you become aware of where your own wounds persist and invite the love of God to join you there, healing you in the same way he healed me.

QUESTION #5: BOOST

Cashiers, CEOs, contractors or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?

C.S. Lewis once said about the writing process, “Don’t try to be original. If you do, you’ll fail. Just tell the truth. And nine times out of 10, you’ll end up being original” (paraphrased). I know the Holy Spirit is invigorating my work when I’m increasingly OK with being me. Sometimes, we feel like, Man, I wish I had that story, that education, that gift, that assignment. But the more grounded I am in the knowledge of my Father’s love for me, the more OK I am with my story, my voice, my calling in life, the everyday gifts he’s allotted — and the more I’m able to celebrate what God’s doing in others’ lives just as wildly as what he’s doing in my own.

I like to imagine Peter in John 21. Jesus just told Peter how he’s going to die and he asks Jesus if John is going to suffer the same way. Jesus replies that it’s not for Peter to know John’s story because Jesus is telling him only his own. This moment is a really good gauge for my spiritual maturity. I know what it’s like to feel Peter’s frustration with Jesus, wanting things to be “fair” or make sense on his own terms. But the older I get, and the more permission I give the Holy Spirit to lead me, the more Jesus’ words to Peter fill me with joy. Because at the end of the day, what a gift to have a Savior who’s writing a great story in the world and has given me a part to play! I know I’m attuned to the voice of Jesus when I long to simply play my part well — no matter if it’s celebrated or obscure, desirable or difficult. The joy is not in the part but in the Author who is with me.

QUESTION #6: inspire

Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied habits that open our hearts to the presence of God. So, let us in. Which spiritual practice is working best for you right now?

So much of my healing journey recounted in the book is a direct result of Pete and Geri Scazzero’s Emotionally Healthy Discipleship community. If you’re familiar with their work at all, you know that a Rule of Life and its corresponding spiritual practices are central to spiritual and emotional maturity. My wife and I have been practicing a regular Rule of Life for seven years now. There have been seasons where it’s been more or less intense (when our boys were born, there wasn’t much on the ol’ spiritual workout plan)! But for seven years now, we’ve been submitting our lives, bodies, minds, time, relationships and vocations to the Lord to orient, define and strengthen as he so desires. It has been exceptionally difficult at times. But looking back over the last seven years, I understand better why the Bible calls it the fruit of the Spirit. You can’t magically create fruit. It must be grown. All you can control are your decisions to till the land, plant the seeds, water the ground, prune the vines and trust that the fruit will grow in its due season. I see rich fruit in my soul that was not there seven years ago. It takes patience, courage, surrender and intentionality. But man, it’s been worth it.

QUESTION #7: FOCUS

Looking backward, considering the full sweep of your unique faith journey and all you encountered along the way, what top three resources stand out to you? What changed the game and changed your heart? What radically altered your life? What changed your reality?

Picking only three resources out of the thousands of books, articles, people, conversations and moments in life that have shaped me feels a little like the punishment of Sisyphus! That said, it is your question. So I’ll answer by saying that today, here are the three resources I’d like to share!

1. Emotionally Healthy Discipleship. Per the previous question, this community and its resources have been so integral to my story and spiritual growth. I cannot recommend this work enough.

2. “Silence” by Shusako Endo. It was made into a movie directed by Martin Scorsese a few years ago. But the book ends with one of the richest existential and theological cliffhangers I’ve encountered. I still think about its ending. This is the power of storytelling, the way it can emote things inside you that mark you. This book did that for me.

3. UPPERROOM spontaneous worship sets. I’ve been very drawn to spontaneous worship sets recently, many by UPPERROOM (a church out of Dallas, Texas). It’s been the background for my morning prayer times. The heart of these guys seems so genuine in its pursuit of encounter with the Lord. It’s blessed me richly in my own morning devotions.

We all have things we cling to to survive (or even thrive) in tough times — times like these! Name one resource you’re savoring and/or finding indispensable in this current season, and tell us what it’s doing for you.

I feel like I’m quoting a lot of C.S. Lewis in this interview! But he has another line about one’s willingness to reread an old book before starting a new one as the mark of a truly impactful resource. There are certain works I find myself returning to over and over as balm for my soul and a tuneup for my spirit.

1. “In the Name of Jesus” by Henri Nouwen. A short, profound book on the nature of Christian leadership.

2. “The Lord of the Rings” by J.R.R. Tolkien. There was a season in my life where I read the whole trilogy every summer for a few years in a row. You may find it pertinent to know that during this season, I was unmarried, childless and unemployed (aka — a student). So I had time. That said, the stories and characters within it contain such rich gospel truths that point me to Jesus and to God’s beautiful creation.

3. The Book of Philippians. Paul’s letter ministers to me in deep ways. There’s something about the knowledge that he’s writing this from prison at the end of his life and ministry that makes it all the more significant.

QUESTION #8: dream

God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?

I have a book growing in me as we speak. If “His Face Like Mine” focuses on the first part of Athanasius’ adage that God became like us, then what I’d love to write about next is that second part, that we might become like him.

Almost as a sequel to my first book, I have experienced incredible miracles and heartbreak these last few years that feel like living in the Book of Acts. When I realize that God’s face in Jesus has become like mine, that starts the transformation process (the Bible calls it sanctification), and slowly, progressively, bit by bit, my face begins to look like his. The more it does, the more the Spirit is at work in me and through me and the more I realize I’m already living in Acts. Much like my first book, I’d like to tell stories that illustrate what it looks like to be a modern-day disciple of Jesus so as to emote something in us that invites us into a richer relationship with the Lord.

More to come. Or if you’re a publisher interested in that idea, let me know and I’ll connect you with my agent (russellwjoyce.com).

Otherwise, I’m a full-time pastor, and you can find my sermons on YouTube at Faith Center Eugene.

I’m also the national director of church planting for the Foursquare denomination, and you can find our work at foursquaremultiply.com.

Lastly, my friend and colleague AJ Swoboda and I host the “Same Jesus Podcast,” where we discuss relevant and important topics on what it means to follow Jesus and lead people in our day.

Jesus never sinned — but that doesn’t mean he didn’t go through the full human experience while on earth. Though still fully God, Jesus became fully human. Think of the boring, exciting, unpleasant, everyday things you experience. Heat and cold. Hunger and thirst. Exhaustion and sleep. Pain and delight. Goals achieved. Frustrations and obstacles. Relational misunderstandings and conflicts. Temptation.

He experienced them all.

Knowing that Jesus went through the full human experience does so much more than give us a motivation boost to follow in his footsteps. He’s more than an example.

His humanness gives us the confidence to approach him and ask for help — to ask for more of him. Hebrews 4:16 tells us, “Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (ESV).

In what areas of your life do you need more of Jesus this week? What do you need to ask him for?

Russell Joyce