Vivian Mabuni
17 min read ⭑
“We are the temple, and the Holy Spirit dwells in us collectively. What a difference that would make in the world if people could look and see that we are Christians by our love and that we are about helping other people. What an apologetic that would be.”
Vivian Mabuni will be the first to tell you that numbers and details aren’t her thing — and that’s OK. She’s happy walking in the gifting God has given her: teaching others how to love Jesus and truly understand his Word. To this end, she speaks at conferences and events, crafts books like “Open Hands, Willing Heart,” and writes for publications like Christianity Today and SheReadsTruth. A Cru staff member for over 30 years, Vivian has an unwavering passion for relationship-focused discipleship that impacts generation after generation.
In today’s interview, she opens up about how her battle with cancer shifted the way she approached God’s call on her life. She also dives into the beauty and struggle of growing up as an Asian American in a mostly white community as well as the spiritual habits and resources that have strengthened her relationship with God over the years.
The following is a transcript of a live interview. Responses have been edited and condensed for brevity and clarity.
QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT
The meals we enjoy are about so much more than the food we eat. So how does a “go-to” meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind your web bio?
I actually have two answers for this. First, our immediate and extended family’s go-to whenever we get back from out of town has been In-N-Out Burger. It’s been that way since before In-N-Out became the place to eat.
My second answer has more to do with the family I grew up with. My parents were born in China, but I grew up in Boulder, Colorado. Still, they cooked Chinese food most of the time. So when I think about some of the dishes they make, I feel such nostalgia. I’ll probably cook stir fry tonight for dinner, and I know the smell of sesame oil, scallions and soy sauce will take me back to my childhood. There’s a comfort in that. It’s interesting because now my kids are young adults, and they’ve learned to cook the way my mom taught me, so it’s generational.
At the same time, there was a push and pull with my family because, growing up as one of one or two Asian Americans among predominantly white classmates and in a predominantly white town, city and state, the cooking and food of home brought a sense of identity and belonging. There was the tension of not fitting in and not having hot dogs, apple pie and whatever else seemed American. We use chopsticks and eat different foods, and we are not the same as most of the people that I went to school with. At times, I’ve felt shame and embarrassment, and other times, I have felt a tremendous amount of healthy pride. But it’s all wrapped in identity. The older I get, the more I appreciate it, but as a child and teenager, it was a real place of struggle.
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QUESTION #2: REVEAL
We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activity do you love engaging in that also helps you find essential spiritual renewal?
It’s throwing parties. I love parties. As I get older, it becomes less about celebrating my birthday. Instead, just a couple of summers ago, I invited my friends over for Christmas in July. The instructions were to bring some food to share and a white elephant gift that was something you would want to receive, not just junk.
It was wild. We laughed until we cried. It was just a theme and a reason to get together, share food and have a good time. That brought so much joy — from the prep to the setting up to the time together to even the cleanup. It was so thoroughly enjoyable.
I graduated last week from my very long 36-year journey of getting my master’s in biblical and theological studies. So one of my friends threw me a formal graduation party right after the ceremony was done. Next month, my family and I are going to throw a graduation party with a Shrek theme. Everyone has to dress up with some kind of a Shrek character and bring some swamp-type food. It’s going to be so great. I cannot wait!
QUESTION #3: CONFESS
Every superhero has a weakness; every human, too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re all broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite, and how do you confront its power head-on?
My kryptonite is that ongoing, deep-rooted, in-my-bone desire to fit in. That comes from, as I shared earlier, growing up as one of very few Asian Americans in my community. I often had a desire to be a chameleon to fit in. I was a high school cheerleader. I tried to do all the things, but I always knew that there was no way I would ever date the captain of the football team or anything like that because of how I looked. That laid the foundation of wanting to fit in.
It’s interesting how our personalities and our pain shape how we navigate life. I still wrestle with wanting to fit into whatever I see on Instagram, whether the condition of my home or the kind of car I drive or the clothing I wear. There’s this unhealthy side of wanting to fit in and feeling like those things would define me rather than truly resting in who I am in the Lord and not having to rely on the opinions of others or the world’s system. It’s elusive; you can’t really ever pinpoint what fitting in would even mean and what you’re even after. That is really a lot of what drives the conflict that I sometimes have with my husband or internally with myself. It’s usually poking into that deep-rooted desire to fit in.
QUESTION #4: FIRE UP
Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your current obsession? And why should it be ours?
I just graduated with my master’s in biblical and theological studies at Denver Seminary. I also have the privilege of serving on the board of trustees there. I have such a passion for all of God’s children — and women in particular — to be not only biblically literate but also able to teach, speak and write things of substance that are true to the Scriptures. There’s a part of me that is always seeking to build what I wish I had. During my 36-year journey of earning my master’s, there were times when I was the only woman in class, and the demands of life were such that it was a lot easier to drop out and not continue with seminary. It’s kind of like starting a train. It just takes so much energy to get going, but then once it’s going, you can keep it going. That energy was really hard to harness and push myself into.
That said, one of the things I’m passionate about right now is starting Women’s Leadership Cohorts at Denver Seminary. Each one is a contained group of women who are taking the same classes and graduating together. It’s a three-year master’s in biblical and theological studies done online with a weeklong seminary camp at the Denver campus, twice in two summers. It’s been a passion project — and a challenging one. I know there are a lot of people who are bi-vocational or men who are in seminary right now trying to finish their degrees while being pastors, but I think the system is still very much male-centric. You have the pastor guy who’s in seminary doing all the things, but he generally is either single or married and has a wife who buys the groceries, cooks the food, picks up the kids from soccer practice and all that. When you have a mom in seminary, she’s adding that to the system. What does it look like to advocate for women, and how do we create a program with the incredible academic standards that come with a master’s degree program from a noted seminary? How do we advocate for women of excellence and intelligence? And capacity-wise, what things create learning vs. busy work, and how can we create something that will be sustainable for all parties? So that’s one of the passion projects I’m working on. We’ve started the first one, and bless them, they are the guinea pig. We’ve learned a lot from having that one going. Most of the women there are authors, speakers and nonprofit leaders doing all sorts of magnificent kingdom work. It’s been hard yet so rewarding because of the camaraderie that comes from that. These cohorts are open to all women to jump in at any season. We have a range of ages, backgrounds and experiences. That is part of a passion project that I’m currently working on.
Then, as an author, I’ve been feeling as if I’m a speaker who writes rather than a writer who speaks. I much more enjoy teaching and speaking than I do writing. I feel really insecure about my writing. I feel it’s time for my third book, and I’m wondering if my final paper is going to provide a springboard into it. The title of the paper was “Misreading Galatians 5 and 6 with Individualistic Eyes,” and my argument was that in the North American Western church, we tend to have a very individualistic approach to our faith. We focus on “the Holy Spirit and me,” “the Holy Spirit in me” and “How do I live the Christian life?” My understanding is that the culture of the whole Bible — and the culture of most places outside of North America — is a lot more collective. It’s more interdependent rather than independent. This is a huge piece that’s missing right now in our polarized society. We have such difficulty bridging the differences because we fail to see that it’s about “all y’all.” Even when Paul says “you” are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the word for “you” is plural. We are the temple, and the Holy Spirit dwells in us collectively. What a difference that would make in the world if people could look and see that we are Christians by our love and that we are about helping other people. What an apologetic that would be. It could shift a lot of things. So that’s what I’m dreaming of. I’ll likely connect with my literary agent soon to see if that topic could lead to a full book. The publishing, writing and speaking world is such an interesting world.
Lastly, my husband and I are also on staff at FamilyLife Ministries, which is the division of Cru that focuses on marriages and families. We’ve been working with Cru for 36 years. We are on the speaker team for the Weekend to Remember marriage conference. And that has been a really wonderful space where we’re able to do something together. It’s connected us with all sorts of people all over the place. That has also been a real place of challenge. Public speaking with my husband is hard. We’re so different, so it creates a lot of conflict and frustrations. Despite its challenges, though, we still love it. Being involved with the Weekend to Remember marriage conferences has been a fun and unexpected part of our ministry journey.
QUESTION #5: BOOST
Cashiers, CEOs, contractors or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?
As I’ve met different people with different giftings, I’ve realized there’s something supernatural when we operate in the way God uniquely designed us. I think about it as working in tandem with the Spirit. For example, I’m most passionate about speaking and teaching the Bible. I know that passion isn’t for everyone — some are called to construction or banking or customer service. Sometimes, I think, Man, if someone were to have me work on a spreadsheet and balance a budget, I would poke my eyeballs out with a pencil. But there are also people who would poke their eyeballs out with a pencil if they had to get up on a stage in front of hundreds of thousands of people. I need to remember that people do derive a tremendous amount of joy doing the things that I may not have any skill in because God is so creative.
As a cancer survivor, I’m learning to rely on the Spirit to walk out my unique gifting. Back in 2009, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, lost all my hair and endured surgeries and radiation. Something for me shifted after that. I experienced a loss of innocence in a sense; I always knew I would die at some point, but that cancer diagnosis brought me close to death in a way I hadn’t been before. I realized I was still alive because God was more glorified with me still being here than being in heaven with him. As a result, I’m not nervous when I speak anymore. I feel the Holy Spirit with me, and I’m no longer concerned with how I look or how I’m doing. Instead, my focus is on the audience, asking if they get it. Are they hearing it right? Do I need to switch anything? It’s a sensitivity to the Spirit. Sometimes when speaking, I’ll add another story or bring up another verse, and someone will give me feedback on it later. They might say, “Oh my goodness, when you shared this, it was exactly what I needed.” I think that is totally the Lord, and it brings me tremendous joy. I can teach four or five times over the weekend and be tired, but it’s a good tired.
This has been a fun season for me — I feel more comfortable in my skin, enjoy the doors that the Lord opens, seek to be all there, listen to the Spirit and bring my offering, my part of the whole thing.
QUESTION #6: inspire
Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied habits that open our hearts to the presence of God. So let us in. Which spiritual practice is working best for you in this season?
I honor the Sabbath by taking my watch off and leaving my phone at home. I don’t even take it to church. The kids know not to text me; they have to text my husband. I appreciate the discipline of not allowing the noise that comes with phone, email and social media. That has been a lifeline in many ways, but I’m still trying to figure out how that works as someone who travels and speaks (often over the weekend), so I usually observe this practice from sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday. Time and again, things don’t go as planned. I’m always pushing toward that standard but am not always successful. But I do notice a difference in my soul when I’m able to keep that rhythm because it grounds everything else. This is especially true when I take longer breaks. Unfortunately, I have not been very good about taking sabbaticals. I took my first sabbatical just a couple of years ago. It was long overdue. I went away by myself to a cabin in Big Bear, California, and just had silence and solitude. I thought, Wow, why didn’t I do this sooner? There is something about stopping, whether it’s a 24-hour window or a little bit more extended — those practices are out of the ordinary and necessary for the kind of listening and cultivating that comes with not being bombarded by everything. That’s huge.
The other thing I think about is consistently trying to be in God’s Word and having the Bible be my primary source of spiritual nourishment. There are great books and podcasts available, but nothing will replace the actual Word of God. I am always trying to read through the Bible in some way or another. I don’t read from Genesis to Revelation, necessarily. I alternate. I’m sometimes in the Old Testament, and then I jump to the New Testament, but I’m constantly trying to sit and take in the Word of God. There’s nothing that will help frame my mind and center my heart and soul like the Bible.
My classes have been phenomenal in helping add more dimension to my Bible reading. For example, I have generally avoided Ezekiel in the Old Testament because it’s full of weird things I don’t understand. One of my assignments for my Old Testament class this past semester was to sit down and read all of Ezekiel from beginning to end in one sitting. Doing that helped me understand what the book is about. Before, I had only read a chapter at a time over the course of many weeks, so I wouldn’t get the full scope and the arc of the book. Reading prophetic books straight through helps me see, for example, that this prophet said this because the kingdoms were split. And this other prophet is going to the Northern Kingdom, which has all these issues. Having that framework allows me to appreciate even more who God is, his character, patience and loving-kindness. It’s mind-blowing to learn who God is instead of reading the Bible like a fortune cookie.
QUESTION #7: FOCUS
Looking backward, considering the full sweep of your unique faith journey and all you encountered along the way, what top three resources stand out to you? What changed reality and your heart?
When I was involved with Cru as a college student at the University of Colorado, we had a vibrant campus ministry. I had never met leaders who lived out lives of integrity and invested in students and student leaders that way. When I was a freshman, Jenny was my Bible study leader, and she was a junior. The way she lived her life was transformative for me. She discipled and invested in me with the understanding that I would, in turn, invest in others who would then invest in others. The goal is always to work yourself out of a job. Whether you’re a small group leader at a church or a lead pastor, try to raise up the next leaders so they can go and do the same or take over so you can start something new. We’re entrusted with many things that we are not to keep to ourselves but rather give away. That idea of spiritual multiplication has absolutely transformed my life because I now always look to who’s coming next and think about how we can pave the way for the next generation of leaders. We do this while continuing to honor all those who’ve gone before us because we stand on the shoulders of remarkable men and women. True discipleship is being trained in how to disciple another who can disciple others — all while focusing on relationship. This is the sweetest part of where I am now.
I spoke at a college retreat this past fall, and we were ministering to a young man whose parents, Scott and Sarah, were involved in the ministry when Darrin and I were at UCLA. Darrin discipled Scott, and they went with us to China on summer missions during freshman and junior year. Their oldest son, Sam, was a student at that fall retreat. I love seeing discipleship span generations. In our small, predominantly Asian American church in Mission Viejo, we have four students whom we’ve watched grow up and who are now in college. To see this beautiful passing of the baton as new leaders are raised up is absolutely thrilling.
Secondly, I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, and living in Boulder, I really considered myself a strong feminist. That was the vibe. Then, I became a Christian and became very confused as to what it meant to be a woman. I was confused, too, about what the Bible said about womanhood. I ended up shutting down a lot of my leadership gifting because I didn’t think that God wanted me to do those kinds of things. No one ever confronted me or said I was disobeying God. But the implication was that it was wrong to teach, speak or lead in any way as a woman. In my late 30s, I was introduced to Carolyn Custis James. She wrote the book “Lost Women of the Bible.” In it, she writes about the ezer warrior in Genesis 2:18, where God said it wasn’t good for man to be alone, so he made a helper suitable for him. The word “ezer” in that passage is often translated as “helper.” It was radical for me to realize that ezer is a term of strength and dignity and that I reflect God differently than my brothers as an ezer. We are ezers from our first breath to our last. I have loved being married to my husband and raising our kids, but those assignments are not the whole of who I am.
Carolyn had such a beautiful and humble perspective and, in my opinion, a healthy and high view of men and women. She saw them as linking arms together. It was a balm to me to learn of the term ezer and to learn to live that out. It was also healing to realize that a secure man is not threatened by the strength of a woman, that it takes a secure woman to not always have to be in control and that it doesn’t always have to be a competition. We really are better together. Teaching both men and women, even at marriage conferences, about the ezer and what that looks like is a passion of mine — because it’s not a power play. We were meant to be together and help each other. We’re called to serve one another, rely on the Lord and listen to him. That connects to what we were talking about earlier regarding being in community and the collective. It’s part of how God designed the world and the people in it.
We all have things we cling to to survive or even thrive in our fast-paced, techno-driven world. How have you been successful in harnessing technology to aid in your spiritual growth?
I’m embarrassed by how easy it is for me to get sucked into mindless scrolling and wasting time on social media. Truly, setting aside time to not use my phone actually helps my spiritual growth because social media can often play into my insecurities and my desire to fit in. Realizing this, I’ve taken social media off my phone so I’m not swayed so much. I find there’s a lot more anxiety in my life when I’m exposed to the boasting and negativity online. On Instagram, I recently found a sweet page of a man with a guitar. He sings songs and animals walk up to him. That’s the whole account. He just sings songs, and these giraffes come walking up to him in the zoo — it’s so beautiful and wholesome.
So I know phones aren’t all bad. My daughter actually started using alarms on her phone to remind her to pray, and I’ve been doing the same. So at 12:12, the alarm goes off, and I’m praying for people who don’t know the Lord. It has helped me be more consistent in prayer. Then I decided to add another alarm to pray for my immediate family. So that’s a helpful aspect of having my phone almost always with me. It’s a great reminder to stop, pause and pray. Sadly, I am in the camp that knows there have been tremendous gains accomplished through technology but also recognizes it’s one of the greatest threats to our spiritual growth. It encourages people to know a half-inch of everything without ever going really deep — because in-depth learning takes a lot of time. The more I am acquainted with technology, the more impatient I get because, say, the website doesn’t load in two seconds. Technology often pushes us into this wild, weird way of navigating life where we expect everything to happen instantaneously.
QUESTION #8: dream
God’s continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?
I’m thinking about continuing my degree and getting a Ph.D. Talking to someone about continuing their education right after graduation may be akin to talking to a woman about having her next baby right after she’s given birth. This desire may be from adrenaline, but I do love learning. It forces me to go deeper than I would push myself. I appreciate how the class structure forces me to research and dig deeper.
I’ve learned that if someone has an interest that not many others share, it’s worth paying attention to — whether it’s going on a short-term missions trip or starting a soup kitchen downtown. Getting my doctorate falls into that category for me.
That said, it took me a long time to get my master’s. During that time, I used to have a hashtag: #yayclassof2045. But I reached my goal 20 years ahead of time, so I should be able to finish a Ph.D. before 2045. Fortunately, I’m in a different life stage where earning a PhD would not take 36 years. So I’m considering pursuing that goal.
Have you been toying with the idea of taking a sabbatical? Research indicates you should just take the plunge. One study found that sabbaticals helped employees break out of the routine, reset their perspectives, accomplish new or different types of work and return to their former obligations with greater clarity.
As believers, this can translate to a deeper relationship with God, a refreshed outlook on our giftings and calling or a renewed sense of purpose for our season of life.
Is a sabbatical practical for you in this season? If not, what smaller steps can you take to find rest each week?
Vivian Mabuni is a national speaker, author, Bible teacher and podcast host. Her writing has appeared in Christianity Today, SheReadsTruth, Our Daily Bread and Propel Sophia, and her teachings have been featured on the YouVersion Bible App’s Verse of the Day. With over 30 years at Cru, she has been a keynote speaker at IF:Gathering, Cru Winter Conferences, Family Life’s Weekend to Remember and women’s events. Author of Open Hands, Willing Heart, she also serves on the board of trustees for Denver Seminary and is the founder and host of Someday Is Here, a podcast for AAPI (Asian American Pacific Islanders) leaders.
